![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
imomusNick, aren't you a bit sick of all this talk about postmodernism?
Yeah, totally. And I'm going to stop soon. But I should probably follow my own advice from yesterday: I should stop talking about postmodernism by talking postmodernism up to the hilt and down to the silt, rather than running away from it. Ride that snake right to the bottom of the pit, and discover the secret trapdoor that leads to the next thing!
Okay, well, let's do the whole alpha and omega thing, then. When did postmodernism begin?
This is quite arbitrary, but I like to think of 1956 as the 'Big Bang' year for postmodernism. Elvis Presley's first single came out that year, and a mixed media art and architecture show called 'This Is Tomorrow' opened at London's Whitechapel Gallery. The show included work by Eduardo Paolozzi and Richard Hamilton which more or less established the Pop Art genre later popularised by Andy Warhol. Just as you can draw a direct line from Andy Warhol to the Velvet Underground, you can draw a direct line from Richard Hamilton to Roxy Music because he taught Bryan Ferry, who named 'Virgina Plain' after one of his paintings. (Reyner Banham was also in the show, and he's on the sleeve of my new album! In fact, if Elvis started mainstream pop music as we know it, the Pop Art of the Independent Group has been much more important to what I think of as 'indie' music and art rock.)
Tell me more about The Independent Group.
Here's a blurb from an MIT Press book about The Independent Group:
'The Independent Group, or the IG, as it was called, is best known for having launched Pop Art. But the young artists, architects, and critics who met informally at London's Institute of Contemporary Arts in the early 1950s were actually embarked on a far more subversive and constructive mission than the founding of an art movement. Street-smart, anti-academic, and iconoclastic, they embraced Hollywood and Madison Avenue and rejected the traditional dichotomies between high and low culture, British and American values. They used their meetings and exhibitions to challenge the official modernist assumptions of British aesthetics and to advocate instead a media-based, consumer-based aesthetics of change and inclusiveness - an aesthetics of plenty. In doing so they drew upon Dadaist, Futurist, and Surrealist strategies to invigorate their alternative version of modernism - a version that today can be said to have insinuated the terms of postmodernism.'
If you want to know more, there's a great essay on the Independent Group by Hal Foster in the New Left Review. It talks about the typically postmodern paradox of a bunch of left wingers who were fascinated by the mediated images they were getting of America's consumerist paradise. And it contains this interesting sentence: 'Richard Hamilton practises an ‘ironism of affirmation’ toward Pop culture (he borrows the phrase from his mentor Duchamp) or, in his own words, a ‘peculiar mixture of reverence and cynicism’.'
An 'aesthetics of plenty', a 'peculiar mixture of reverence and cynicism', Elvis Presley breaking in America, the Independent Group brainstorming in London... it's all looking quite postmodern already. But it doesn't exactly add up to a Big Bang, does it? What else is going on that year in other places?
Well, over in Paris Roland Barthes is writing 'Mythologies', his book of essays on such things as the way the new Citroen looks like a medieval cathedral or how Charlton Heston's hairstyle seems suspiciously modern in a Hollywood gladiator movie. 'Mythologies' is still the template today for cultural journalism. Meanwhile, Jean-Luc Godard, a journalist at Cahiers du Cinema, is raving about populist British / American directors like Hitchcock and John Ford, as you can see from the Top 10 lists he starts publishing that year. Even if Godard hadn't invented postmodern editing and pastiche when he made 'Breathless', he would go down in pomo history for inventing the Top 10 List, an important part of pomo ephemera / trivia culture!
Just ten years before that, in 1946, Jean-Paul Sartre gave a lecture called 'Existentialism is a Humanism'. Is postmodernism a humanism too?
There's no contradiction between humanism and postmodernism -- at least no more than there was a contradiction between humanism and enlightenment (and that's quite a big caveat, as Adorno et al point out in 'Dialectic of Enlightenment').
Okay, I'll read that tonight. I'm getting bored, Nick, let's cut to the chase. Do you have any idea what will replace postmodernism?
Yes. It's already clear what will replace postmodernism. Posthumanism. The era of gentech, the blending of manbrain and machinebrain, of the posthuman and of 'digital flesh' (copyright Arthur and Marilouise Kroker) is the next thing. Never mind humanist, postmodernism may well be the last cultural movement that's 100% human.
Was September 11th 2001 -- said by some to mark the end of irony -- also the end of postmodernism?
No, 9/11 is a totally pomo event. Bin Laden is a completely pomo phenomenon, in the sense that his Islamic fundamentalism is in a simple dialectic with the west's 'aesthetics of plenty'. In fact, you could argue that Bin Laden is a pomo rockist in just the same way that Michael Gira sets Devendra Banhart up to be. Bin Laden and Banhart both exist in the present and use postmodern technology and the media to further their goals, but condemn the contemporary and harken back to a notionally more 'pure' time when people were 'less corrupted'. This apparent denial of postmodernism is actually an integral part of its dialectics. Bin Laden probably gave pomo an extra 20 years of life when he arranged 9/11. It was looking, in the 90s, to be morphing into 'the posthuman'. But Bin Laden brought things back to the old pomo binaries: sincere / ironic, real / fake, past / present, anorexia / bulemia...
Bin Laden and Banhart also both have beards. Hmm. So if postmodernism didn't end with 9/11, when will it end?
You may laugh at this prediction now, but you won't laugh in 2012: the point at which postmodernism turns into posthumanism is the moment when Arnold Schwarzenegger becomes president of the US. That's the point at which the pomo fight between the authentic and the fake morphs into the posthuman fight between flesh and digital flesh. He will be elected to 'terminate' Islamic fundamentalism, a dialectic that will by that point be a bit tired, but he will actually be the first 'terminator president', and herald in an age of unprecedented man-machine combination.
Oh shit! I hope you're wrong! I'm starting to feel nostalgic for postmodernism already!
Yes, it's such a lovely word, isn't it, 'postmodernism'? It sounds friendly and warm, like logs crackling in the grate. Whereas 'posthuman'... brrrr!
I'm trying to imagine what cultural life will be like in the world of the posthuman? Will it be very different from cultural life in postmodernism?
Well, just as there as continuities between modernism and postmodernism, so there will be continuities between the postmodern and the posthuman. The rockist questions about authenticity will not go away -- in fact, they'll become, if anything, more central. But with a twist: it will be the clones and the machines that'll harp on most about stuff like authenticity and humanity, whereas the humans will insist on artificiality. Everyone will have an anxiety about their differences, which will make them rush for common ground.
So the future is Robot Rockism?
I'm afraid so, my digital friend. Now, time to switch you off, your batteries need recharging!
Yeah, totally. And I'm going to stop soon. But I should probably follow my own advice from yesterday: I should stop talking about postmodernism by talking postmodernism up to the hilt and down to the silt, rather than running away from it. Ride that snake right to the bottom of the pit, and discover the secret trapdoor that leads to the next thing!
Okay, well, let's do the whole alpha and omega thing, then. When did postmodernism begin?
This is quite arbitrary, but I like to think of 1956 as the 'Big Bang' year for postmodernism. Elvis Presley's first single came out that year, and a mixed media art and architecture show called 'This Is Tomorrow' opened at London's Whitechapel Gallery. The show included work by Eduardo Paolozzi and Richard Hamilton which more or less established the Pop Art genre later popularised by Andy Warhol. Just as you can draw a direct line from Andy Warhol to the Velvet Underground, you can draw a direct line from Richard Hamilton to Roxy Music because he taught Bryan Ferry, who named 'Virgina Plain' after one of his paintings. (Reyner Banham was also in the show, and he's on the sleeve of my new album! In fact, if Elvis started mainstream pop music as we know it, the Pop Art of the Independent Group has been much more important to what I think of as 'indie' music and art rock.)
Tell me more about The Independent Group.
Here's a blurb from an MIT Press book about The Independent Group:
'The Independent Group, or the IG, as it was called, is best known for having launched Pop Art. But the young artists, architects, and critics who met informally at London's Institute of Contemporary Arts in the early 1950s were actually embarked on a far more subversive and constructive mission than the founding of an art movement. Street-smart, anti-academic, and iconoclastic, they embraced Hollywood and Madison Avenue and rejected the traditional dichotomies between high and low culture, British and American values. They used their meetings and exhibitions to challenge the official modernist assumptions of British aesthetics and to advocate instead a media-based, consumer-based aesthetics of change and inclusiveness - an aesthetics of plenty. In doing so they drew upon Dadaist, Futurist, and Surrealist strategies to invigorate their alternative version of modernism - a version that today can be said to have insinuated the terms of postmodernism.'
If you want to know more, there's a great essay on the Independent Group by Hal Foster in the New Left Review. It talks about the typically postmodern paradox of a bunch of left wingers who were fascinated by the mediated images they were getting of America's consumerist paradise. And it contains this interesting sentence: 'Richard Hamilton practises an ‘ironism of affirmation’ toward Pop culture (he borrows the phrase from his mentor Duchamp) or, in his own words, a ‘peculiar mixture of reverence and cynicism’.'
An 'aesthetics of plenty', a 'peculiar mixture of reverence and cynicism', Elvis Presley breaking in America, the Independent Group brainstorming in London... it's all looking quite postmodern already. But it doesn't exactly add up to a Big Bang, does it? What else is going on that year in other places?
Well, over in Paris Roland Barthes is writing 'Mythologies', his book of essays on such things as the way the new Citroen looks like a medieval cathedral or how Charlton Heston's hairstyle seems suspiciously modern in a Hollywood gladiator movie. 'Mythologies' is still the template today for cultural journalism. Meanwhile, Jean-Luc Godard, a journalist at Cahiers du Cinema, is raving about populist British / American directors like Hitchcock and John Ford, as you can see from the Top 10 lists he starts publishing that year. Even if Godard hadn't invented postmodern editing and pastiche when he made 'Breathless', he would go down in pomo history for inventing the Top 10 List, an important part of pomo ephemera / trivia culture!
Just ten years before that, in 1946, Jean-Paul Sartre gave a lecture called 'Existentialism is a Humanism'. Is postmodernism a humanism too?
There's no contradiction between humanism and postmodernism -- at least no more than there was a contradiction between humanism and enlightenment (and that's quite a big caveat, as Adorno et al point out in 'Dialectic of Enlightenment').
Okay, I'll read that tonight. I'm getting bored, Nick, let's cut to the chase. Do you have any idea what will replace postmodernism?
Yes. It's already clear what will replace postmodernism. Posthumanism. The era of gentech, the blending of manbrain and machinebrain, of the posthuman and of 'digital flesh' (copyright Arthur and Marilouise Kroker) is the next thing. Never mind humanist, postmodernism may well be the last cultural movement that's 100% human.
Was September 11th 2001 -- said by some to mark the end of irony -- also the end of postmodernism?
No, 9/11 is a totally pomo event. Bin Laden is a completely pomo phenomenon, in the sense that his Islamic fundamentalism is in a simple dialectic with the west's 'aesthetics of plenty'. In fact, you could argue that Bin Laden is a pomo rockist in just the same way that Michael Gira sets Devendra Banhart up to be. Bin Laden and Banhart both exist in the present and use postmodern technology and the media to further their goals, but condemn the contemporary and harken back to a notionally more 'pure' time when people were 'less corrupted'. This apparent denial of postmodernism is actually an integral part of its dialectics. Bin Laden probably gave pomo an extra 20 years of life when he arranged 9/11. It was looking, in the 90s, to be morphing into 'the posthuman'. But Bin Laden brought things back to the old pomo binaries: sincere / ironic, real / fake, past / present, anorexia / bulemia...
Bin Laden and Banhart also both have beards. Hmm. So if postmodernism didn't end with 9/11, when will it end?
You may laugh at this prediction now, but you won't laugh in 2012: the point at which postmodernism turns into posthumanism is the moment when Arnold Schwarzenegger becomes president of the US. That's the point at which the pomo fight between the authentic and the fake morphs into the posthuman fight between flesh and digital flesh. He will be elected to 'terminate' Islamic fundamentalism, a dialectic that will by that point be a bit tired, but he will actually be the first 'terminator president', and herald in an age of unprecedented man-machine combination.
Oh shit! I hope you're wrong! I'm starting to feel nostalgic for postmodernism already!
Yes, it's such a lovely word, isn't it, 'postmodernism'? It sounds friendly and warm, like logs crackling in the grate. Whereas 'posthuman'... brrrr!
I'm trying to imagine what cultural life will be like in the world of the posthuman? Will it be very different from cultural life in postmodernism?
Well, just as there as continuities between modernism and postmodernism, so there will be continuities between the postmodern and the posthuman. The rockist questions about authenticity will not go away -- in fact, they'll become, if anything, more central. But with a twist: it will be the clones and the machines that'll harp on most about stuff like authenticity and humanity, whereas the humans will insist on artificiality. Everyone will have an anxiety about their differences, which will make them rush for common ground.
So the future is Robot Rockism?
I'm afraid so, my digital friend. Now, time to switch you off, your batteries need recharging!
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
Arnold Schwarzenegger becomes president of the US
Date: 2004-10-30 02:52 am (UTC)Re: Arnold Schwarzenegger becomes president of the US
Date: 2004-10-30 03:06 am (UTC)Re: Arnold Schwarzenegger becomes president of the US
From:Re: Arnold Schwarzenegger becomes president of the US
From:Re: Arnold Schwarzenegger becomes president of the US
From:beep-beep Ka-Boom!!!
Date: 2004-10-30 03:27 am (UTC)Mo' Pomo
Date: 2004-10-30 07:25 am (UTC)Being ever distrustful of critics, I think we have to be reminded that these labels are usually only easy to apply after the fact--and in fact, labels can be peeled off and new ones placed over them. I wonder how many artists have consciously ever thought, "I am a postmodernist." Or, now, "I will become a posthumanist." I suppose Momus does; maybe it comes easier for musicians and possibly visual artists. But writers? Even the critics themselves? Sure, one of the criteria of being a postmodernist must be self-consciousness, but it seems so often that interesting, good art is made by people who aren't fully consciously aware of what it is exactly that they are doing, or where it falls in relation to the other cultural artefacts of the time. (Though when I write, I do feel myself looking over my own shoulder, and am only too aware that art can only really hope to preserve the past, not stop time or pretend to see the future.)
Although I'm not denying for a minute that we are in and currently leaving what we can conveniently call the postmodern era, in every era there have been artists who have been affected by and learned to manipulate the latest technological advances, whether it be the clay tablet, the Gutenberg press, or the manual typewriter and photogravure. I'm reading Alfred Jarry's "How to Build a Time Machine" right now and it strikes me as the most amazing postmodernist document I've ever witnessed outside an art gallery or TV commercial. So, has some form of postmodernism always been, and is it forever?
Re: Mo' Pomo
Date: 2004-10-30 08:35 am (UTC)Re: Mo' Pomo
Date: 2004-10-30 12:23 pm (UTC)That's not really the concensus opinion among art historians, though. The artists that hold the highest status in the contemporary canon (Duchamp, Warhol, Buren, Broodthaers) have little to recommend them other than an extreme consciousness of their position in history and how to manipulate it. Ever since artists and critics decided to follow the path set by minimalism and conceptualism (i.e. the path of theory), self-awareness has been held as the highest value.
Re: Mo' Pomo
From:Re: Mo' Pomo
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2004-10-31 05:00 am (UTC) - Expand(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-30 08:55 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-30 12:53 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-30 09:33 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-30 09:57 am (UTC)the history of information
Date: 2004-10-30 11:06 am (UTC)However-'posthumanism' replacing 'postmodernism'? Other than the fact that it's just absurd when people talk about 'what will replace postmodernism'(What will replace the word 'air'? Something that more accurately describes the weather.) the interaction of digital and human flesh has been a staple of academic theory, some say postmodern academic theory, since at the very latest the 80's. And the theoretical definitions for 'posthumanism' put the beginings of the posthuman back to 50's. Nick-the vice president has a computer-mediated instrument setting the rhythms of his heartbeat-what else is he but a cyborg? The best book written on this subject is How We Became Posthuman (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226321460/qid=1099159372/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-3031431-5340169?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) by Katherine Hayles. I think you would enjoy it. Far more insightful than that cow Harraway.
Re: the history of information
Date: 2004-10-30 11:17 am (UTC)Re: the history of information
From:Re: the history of information
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2004-10-30 03:09 pm (UTC) - ExpandRe: the history of information
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2004-10-30 04:41 pm (UTC) - Expand(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-30 11:17 am (UTC)"According to Charles Jencks, the end of modernism and the beginning of postmodernism took place at 3:32 P.M. on July 15, 1972. At that moment the Pruitt-Igoe housing development in St. Louis, a pinnacle of modernist architecture, was blown up. Though a prize-winning exemplar of high technology, modernistic aesthetics, and functional design, the project was so impersonal and depressing, so crime-ridden and impossible to patrol, that it was uninhabitable. The demolition of the Pruitt-Igloe development is a paradigm for postmodernism. The modern worldview constructs rationally designed systems in which human beings find it impossible to live. This paradigm applies not so much to housing projects as to philosophical systems and ways of life."
Also, most scholars tend to talk about the begining of postmodernism in the emergence of stylistically postmodern buildings like Philip Johnson's "chippendale" AT & T Building of 1979.
Another beginning of the postmodern movement is the publication of Lyotard's "The Postmodern Condition" also of 1979. I would also say that another emerging point of postmodernism as a school of movement of thought and consciousness would be the period directly after the May 1968 revolution in which a new reactionary movement of thought emerged with thinkers like Derrida and Baudrillard and the capitalist apathy of the seventies began to emerge.
Of course, most of this is semi-cultural, high art or academic, and you're marking the beginning of postmodernism in the fifties is a bit unaccepted but I wouldn't deem it necessarily inaccurate. The fifties was a time of staid conformity, strong moral values, and the emergence of frenzied capitalist mass media (at least in America). However, ideas and figures of culture such as simulation, a concept so close to postmodernism, hadn't emerged until Post-1968. Even in the thinking world, the fifties were deemed as the time of the "spectcle" of fifties hollywood and adverstisements rather than the frenzied "simulation" one would see in Nike and popular culture later. Most of your other musings seem to be more correct, such as those about Arnold, Pop Art, Islam, Bin Laden, etc. However, the notion that postmodernism is a humanism seems to be at odds, especially sense the existentialists would most likely reject all of postmodernisms popular culture madness as bad faith and sense postmodernism also tends to critique enlightenment thought. On the other hand, with the ruleless and broad postmodern movement, there is nothing preventing it from being a humanism or presenting itself as a capitalist humanism of sorts most likely via thinkers such as Fukuyama.
However, I think you're urging us to accept postmodernism as a condition is extremely positive. Once this happens, it seems we can function without the pretense of being absolute right and can face our uncertainty and just move onto aesthetics without all the pretentious movements, individuals and "isms." Do you see this newly liberated aesthetics as truly coming from Japan? And if so, where specifically? I want artists, musicians, poets, writers, religions, etc. who just make art or literature and music again that pleases them and just accept uncertainty and questions of legitimacy. I would definitely check out such artists because this cultural question is extremely close to my heart.
thanks,
brian
(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-30 11:19 am (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2004-10-31 05:11 am (UTC) - Expand(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:Quotabale notable
Date: 2004-10-30 11:53 am (UTC)This is such a good quote from recent Momus I think it bears repeating.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-30 12:40 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-30 01:02 pm (UTC)jesus. you people are too smart.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-31 11:35 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-30 02:44 pm (UTC)i think youre absolutely right.
post-humanism IS the succesor! it seems so obvious, now that someone flat out said it, i'm not sure why i didn't think of that myself...
i guess all i can say now is, i cant wait :D
(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-30 05:12 pm (UTC)Visiting Ground Zero a year after 9/11, I was struck by the architectural significance of the space created, this vast scar in lower Manhattan, and I think it will be years before some shoddy memorial and mall (which will also be pomo) are built in its place. While Ground Zero is a jagged site of wreckage it is still of political use. By putting up a memorial and a new tower there, it will provide closure, and the powers that be do not want closure. They want a wound there. The aesthetic value of the negative space is politically useful.
I am not sure if posthumanism is going to replace postmodernism, just because "posthuman" is to me so nebulous. An artificial heart? A purely online existence? When you've got your cybernetic eyeballs what are you looking at with them?
My thinking is, and I'm really shaky on this so don't quote me, is that a new tribalism and Neal Stephenson-esque "phyles" are going to become the dominant means of organization. We can already see it with like 'goths' and 'nerds' and 'republicans' and other forms of cultural identities, passionately held, reinforced by the Internet and replacing national/city-based groupings, ultimately putting people into camps based on what they like and prefer instead of what they live close to. We can see the very beginnings of this in current political polarizations and youth subcultures/new urban tribes. I haven't developed this, I'm not 100% on it yet, but I think posthumans are going to be just another group in a host of tribes from neo-victorians to fundamentalist Christian Talibans to anarchist communes. As government recedes these tribes will take over.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-01 11:46 pm (UTC)http://www.bolo-bolo.org/english.htm
W
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:long time listener, first time caller
Date: 2004-10-30 05:30 pm (UTC)-c.
Re: long time listener, first time caller
Date: 2004-11-01 09:32 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-30 07:01 pm (UTC)> Bin Laden and Banhart both exist in the present and use postmodern technology and the media to further their goals
I like the way that Bin Laden records his messages on C90 casettes, thus refusing to engage with digital/Microsoft technology. We were told by the people who sold us CDs that tape was obsolete, but Bin Laden's message seems to get through okay.
Post - Mortemism
Date: 2004-10-30 11:36 pm (UTC)Re: Post - Mortemism
Date: 2004-10-31 12:24 am (UTC)Re: Post - Mortemism
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2004-10-31 06:31 pm (UTC) - Expand(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-31 01:38 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-31 01:56 am (UTC)Schwarzenegger would be a republican president whose wife votes for the democrats. So maybe the democrats and republicans go together and the green party will be the new opposition (the only one of course because two parties is enough obviously) and one day you’ll have a USgreen president, or darkgreen or black again.
From what I experience at school, I’d say the future will be a lot better than the present. The young people today are so clever, lovely and positive thinking, they don’t seem to fit into pessimistic previews. They should have a lot of little wonders sleeping in their minds and souls; bright, weird, sparkeling, I am looking forward to it. anna
(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-31 12:57 pm (UTC)'Two-Way Family Favourites was a show that reunited our boys overseas with their families back home on a Sunday lunchtime. One afternoon I heard them say, 'Lance Bombardier Higgins has requested the first record by the new American singing sensation Elvis Presley.' On came Elvis, and it sounds idiotic to say it now, but at the time 'Heartbreak Hotel' was just a revelation, like being transported immediately to another planet. The only thing that came close was when I heard Little Richard a few weeks later. It was genuinely frightening, as if something had been unleashed on the world that would never go back in the bottle. It turned out to be the case, wonderfully.'
(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-01 01:16 am (UTC)Heavens, but they were pretty things.
W
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-31 11:43 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-11-11 07:44 pm (UTC)Post-jesusland his chart seems to be quite battered and crumbling... I'm really not sure about Negypt as the ultimate cultural phenomenon. hehe! but if that's what he heard, who am I to argue?