imomus: (Default)
imomus ([personal profile] imomus) wrote2008-01-18 03:18 pm

Suppin

When it comes to human faces, I have two marked preferences: I prefer feminine faces to masculine ones, and I prefer women without makeup to women with.

Here's a shot from the BBC Sex ID test which told me I preferred feminine faces. I selected the face on the left as more attractive. And here's a Daily Mail feature entitled "Would you dare to go bare?" which shows women before and after makeup. In every single case, I prefer the before picture.



And -- although I was once paid by a cosmetics commercial to write a song for Kahimi Karie that went "Put some makeup on your face / Make this world a better place" -- I actually couldn't agree less with "Joe" in this Times feature entitled "Giving your makeup a makeover": "I think that all women should wear a little makeup. There is no such thing as an ugly woman, only a lazy one. My wife has a demanding job as a lawyer and has three children under the age of four and still manages to make an effort." Ugly women are only lazy ones -- women who haven't worked hard on their makeup? What preposterous misogyny!

In English we don't really have a positive word ("lazy" doesn't count) for a woman who doesn't wear makeup. In Japan, they do. The word is suppin: a fresh-faced, makeup-free woman. I think all the women I've ever dated have been suppin women. I'm not used to kissing lipstick. It would just feel wrong. The girls I find attractive are girls like this American Apparel ad girl (I think she's Mexican):



I'm not quite sure where my preferences come from. Maybe it's some kind of puritanism. "My [Pakistani] father went mad if he saw even a hint of mascara. Freedom for my friends at university meant trying drugs and drinking. For me, it meant lipstick," says Saira Khan, describing an Islamic fundamentalist upbringing probably not too different from the fundamentalist Calvinist upbringing my father had in Scotland. Then again, maybe it's just good taste.

One thing's for sure. The women spending £1000 a year on cosmetics are wasting a great deal of money if they think all men like it. We don't (although the men making and selling the stuff -- Mr Max Factor, for instance -- must love it).

I asked Hisae if she was wearing any makeup. "No," she said, as if I were crazy even to ask. So who, in Japan, wears makeup? Mostly, H told me, people who work. If you turn up at work without makeup on, the boss is going to think you woke up late and didn't have time to paint your face. Also, some girls refuse to let their boyfriends see them bare-faced. They think that, without that mask, nobody will love them. They're wrong.

I suggest we strike a blow against the cosmetics industry, and against those bullying newspaper features that try to terrorize women into buying makeup. Here's the news: many men think you look much better without it. Those men -- like me! -- believe that a positively-charged word for bare-facedness needs to be introduced, perhaps a loan word from another language (since we don't have one). I suggest suppin.

[identity profile] kumakouji.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 02:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Too much make-up makes you look like a clown. I dont like it.

However...

Image

Sometimes subtle make-up is perfectly fine...
ext_36143: (Default)

[identity profile] badasstronaut.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 02:38 pm (UTC)(link)
In English we don't really have a positive word ("lazy" doesn't count) for a woman who doesn't wear makeup.

Natural

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(Anonymous) 2008-01-18 02:52 pm (UTC)(link)
but.. it's for the girlfriends, boys don't matter!

(Anonymous) 2008-01-18 02:58 pm (UTC)(link)
i personally never ever go out of house not wearing makeup. it's just socially rude to do so, and my confidence level goes way up with makeup. i'm happy that there are men like you who prefer women suppin, and that there will be way more in the future - but no, women will never stop makeup for as long as we are on this planet.

these were both yuki, btw. of formerly kissui.

that said, i think you'll get a huge kick out of the mixi ads - when you set your age to "20s / women", quite horrible ads show up, of boyfriends threatening to leave you if you don't lose 5kg by christmas and such.

(Anonymous) 2008-01-18 03:12 pm (UTC)(link)
I suggest we strike a blow to the fashion industry and those bullying fashion magazine ads and blogs who try to terrorize women into buying expensive and colorful clothes. Lets wear jeans and t-shirt everyone! What, people actually wear clothes (or even make-up) to express themselves and feel beautiful and not only to arouse the opposite sex ? Surely not.

/bug

[identity profile] thegooseking.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 03:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Not sure about this one... Other than the fact that makeup is less functional and utilitarian than clothing, I don't really see any difference. Taking that point further, then, makeup seems to me just as valid a form of self-expression as fashion choices: I'm not sure it's "a mask to make people love them" in every woman's case (although in some cases that is certainly true), and may in fact be some kind of creative, artistic endeavour.

Then there's the question of how it's marketed. Well, yes, I agree with your point about that, but it's done that way because the people selling it are in the business of making money. I think the implication that they have to market it that way otherwise nobody would want it is perhaps overly cynical.

On the other hand, of course, it becomes a far more potent medium of self-expression if more people realise they don't need it...

[identity profile] idletigers.wordpress.com (from livejournal.com) 2008-01-18 03:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I know you're right, but my perspective on this is horribly skewed because as a young lad I spent so much time badly wanting to slap make-up over my face... perhaps I was thinking more in terms of "stage" make-up than "life" make-up. Performance theorists: is there a difference?
-Ross

[identity profile] olamina.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 04:27 pm (UTC)(link)
I hated makeup for a very long time, but in the past few years I've definitely looked at it as a psychological preparation for interacting with people,and from what I can tell I get a positive response. It may just be all in my head, which is to say by doing this makeup ritual I feel more confident and project that confidence outward where people respond to it, but either way I enjoy makeup and think I lok better when I wear it and I have grown to like the rituals of putting it on.....but that having been said, I know for sure that there are men who dont like it because my boyfriend is one of them.

(Anonymous) 2008-01-18 03:38 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't think that the woman on the left has no make-up on. She's just made up to look that way.

You exclusively date 20something Asian girls, who generally have great skin. Older women may have not so great skin, and hence have recourse to makeup. Why the fuck shouldn't they? And who says they're doing it just to make themselves attractive to men? Female fashion is more about female competition than it is about attracting mates, which is why female body shapes in women's magazines are so very different from what they are in porn magazines.

The Texas Tosser

[identity profile] cerulicante.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 04:12 pm (UTC)(link)
You hit it right on the noggin.


Women do not wear makeup and dress nicely for US. They do it to compete and show off to each other. Even the most clueless woman knows that men focus more on what's BELOW the neck than what's above it. We don't give a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut what she's got on her face as long as the knickers can come off after supper and a movie. She has that pancake geisha stuff on to show other women that she is worthy, attractive and enviable.

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n00b? what?

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[identity profile] womanonfire.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 03:57 pm (UTC)(link)
yeah!!! makeup sux!

[identity profile] akabe.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 04:15 pm (UTC)(link)
it's a bit odd that japan emerges as the positive example for no-make (which btw is probably the more common expression than suppin). a no-make japan is the japan of that bowl of ramen cooked for too long in water not quite at boiling point i mentioned here once a while ago. (berlin would surely be a better example)

[identity profile] olamina.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 04:31 pm (UTC)(link)
yeah when i think of a plain unmade face "low maintenance" chick, Germany springs to mind more so than Japan.

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[identity profile] mme-furiosa.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 04:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I will never forget, many years ago, getting ready to go out with a girlfriend:

She marched into the bathroom brandishing her mascara wand, declaring loudly, "Gotta get this war paint on!"

war paint

I have never seen makeup in the same light since.

[identity profile] lord-whimsy.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 05:04 pm (UTC)(link)
I hope we're not suggesting that a lack of makeup (try taking it away from any woman over 35, btw) is somehow more "honest", when in many circles it is just another kind of affectation--a signifier of "earthiness".

More makeup and masks for everyone! It's color! It's play! It's charade! It's plumage! It's art!

Image ImageImage
ImageImageImageImage

[identity profile] electricwitch.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 05:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Preach it, sister!

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[identity profile] fishwithissues.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 05:07 pm (UTC)(link)
waxing my moustache is more or less a parallel choice for me, and i can't really make a moral case out of it--either i look goofy covered in overlong wispy face curls or i look goofy like a circus dude. aesthetics aren't about drawing crisp clean lines in the sand--it's more intuitive and depends on the person. wish-wash!

[identity profile] unwoman.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 05:14 pm (UTC)(link)
you have a magical moustache!! :{)

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[identity profile] unwoman.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 05:13 pm (UTC)(link)
I can only speak for myself when I say I think I look hot both with and without makeup, and depending on what my particular phase is at the time/what side of bed I rolled out on/how well my skin is behaving, I'll decide to wear it (in moderate or severe amounts) or not. But I'm a performer too and I just know what looks better on camera, and the look that I'm going for is glamorous and sophisticated, which always requires makeup if your skin is not 100% flawless and your eyelashes are lighter than your dyed-black hair.

(Anonymous) 2008-01-18 05:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Those photos are fooling you, Momus, they're all wearing foundation. (well, possibly not Carol and Anna, but the rest are). It might be okay to go suppin if you have perfect youthful skin, but the blotchy among us look better with a bit of 'light coverage'. I loathe those ads for thick metallic shiny lipstick and spider-leg eyelashes as much as anyone, but it's up to the individual what they choose to slap onto their face. Unless you live in Afghanistan, where cosmetics are banned.

men and their preferences can fuck off

[identity profile] electricwitch.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 05:23 pm (UTC)(link)
They can pry my glitter and eyeliner from my cold, dead hands!

After I´ve put it on all the cops and all the guns and written GLAMROCK WILL NEVER DIE on the walls in lipstick, that is. Possibly tried to stun the guns with extra strength hairspray and glued eyelashes on all the dogs.

Re: men and their preferences can fuck off

(Anonymous) 2008-01-19 01:44 am (UTC)(link)
I hope you're not kidding, 'cause I'm totally with you.

[identity profile] vonbruckhousen.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 05:25 pm (UTC)(link)
paint me.

[identity profile] microworlds.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 05:31 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't wear much makeup, except for foundation. Most of this stems from a) not having steady hands b) I don't have the patience and c) I'd much rather spend my time on the computer. Plus, I think I look like a mad woman with eyeshadow and eyeliner on. Take this, for example:
Image
This was after modest prom dress modeling (LOL MORMONS), and as you can see, I hated the way I looked. When they put the makeup on me and I looked at myself in the mirror, I laughed really hard and then left the bathroom. But even more frightening are the girls in [livejournal.com profile] mac_cosmetics, who are fanatical about MAC Cosmetics, of course. Here is one girl:
Image
Frightening, right? I just think to myself "how long would it take to take this off?" It's so hard taking off heavy makeup, especially eyeliner.

Anyway, I only wore foundation on my first date with my boyfriend, and he still thought I was sexy. Not that there's anything wrong with a little mascara, but with heavy makeup, I always wonder what they look like without the makeup. Hmm.

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If you prefer ‘natural’, why do you prefer plucked eyebrows? (Top left)

(Anonymous) 2008-01-18 06:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Huh? HUH? Pluckin' like a chicken is not very 'accept yourself'?

'Femininity', bah: social constraints, like 'masculinity', to distract us from da revolution.

[identity profile] fruitdrops.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 06:39 pm (UTC)(link)
for the first example of the girl with and without makeup, it bothers me that she is most definitely actually wearing a lot of makeup on the left one also. I see foundation, probably face powder, definitely mascara (with curled eyelashes) and lipgloss! THAT IS MAKEUP

It would be nice to see an experiment where a girl has a close-up photo of her taken absolutely 100% barefaced. I've had guys tell me that they hate makeup, yet they like the way I look with a seemingly even skintone as opposed to my normally blotchy, somewhat blemishy one. It's a little bit hypocritical.

[identity profile] lord-whimsy.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 06:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah. It would have been more legitimate if we had set this post up as a preference for a certain kind of artifice/makeup that gives the impression of a freshly-scrubbed healthy glow.

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[identity profile] chuckm.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 07:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Amen! Preach it, brotha man!

(Anonymous) 2008-01-18 07:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Man, I was just starting to think that that test wasn't that bad when they hit me with this "did you know that, on average, women use 15,000 words a day while men use 7,000" nonsense. No, I didn't know that, and neither does anyone else. This claim is a total myth with no basis in actual research, but it keeps being repeated, presumably because it fits in so nicely with pre-existing prejudices.

der.

[identity profile] microworlds.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 08:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I know, I just took it and it said I think like a man! Which is somewhat true, but still!

[identity profile] uberdionysus.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 07:53 pm (UTC)(link)
A Japanese friend of mine has one of the most beautiful faces I know, but she ruins it with slathered on make-up. I mean, it's beautiful applied, or whatever, but she's so much prettier without it.

We went to the beach once (along with some white girls and other Japanese girls, all who didn't wear much make up) and all of her make up was washed off by the water. And she had beautiful, beautiful freckles!

When we commented on how beautiful her freckles were, she told us that freckles are considered ugly in Japan.

I'm so with you on the suppin.

[identity profile] lord-whimsy.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 07:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Love freckles on Irish and Scottish girls. They are often golden over a pinkish complexion. And when they perspire, they smell like milk.

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[identity profile] uberdionysus.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 07:59 pm (UTC)(link)
As [livejournal.com profile] kumakouji noted, the very beautiful don't need make up (except in the crazy case I mentioned). So it kind of distorts the scale against the not very beautiful.

Also, once a Puerto Rican guy and I talked about our different notions of beauty. He admitted that the women in our neighborhood were pretty, but said they were lazy - they didn't bother to dress up and present themselves. On the contrary, Puerto Rican girls present themselves. I thought that was a pretty important distinction and one that goes back to the distinction between authenticity and theatricality.

In this case, both you and I are on the side of authenticity (which bothers me). It really is a privileged stance that is easy for beautiful 20 year old American Apparel models to adopt, and kinda rough on everyone else.

[identity profile] kumakouji.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 08:42 pm (UTC)(link)
I just took a quick look at your journal and I found this entry (http://uberdionysus.livejournal.com/463585.html) that I think links in very nicely with what we've been discussing:

"I want to break the Williamsburg "Grover Phenomenon."

The "Grover Phenomenon" describes the dating/couple situation in Williamsburg, Brooklyn.

All the guys here look like Grover. For those who don't remember, Grover is a Muppet from Sesame Street, and he was funny looking, scruffy, hairy, and skinny but with a pot-belly.

All the girls here, on the other hand, look like part-time models who read Heidegger. When you see the girls here, you think of the song, "The Most Beautiful Girl in the Room" from Flight of the Conchords.

It's weird to see Grover walking hand in hand with Intellectual Part-Time Model, but on some level it must give every man in the universe hope that he too can land a Intellectual Part-Time Model, despite his funny looks.
"

that's a prime example of men getting their power from their social achievements and women again mainly getting their "power" from beauty.

PS. All the cool hipsters left Williamsburg ages ago.

[identity profile] beketaten.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 08:39 pm (UTC)(link)
makeup is completely useless to me, as a woman.
i just can't relate to women who use it at all.

thank you, Mo-mo :P

here's to choice!

[identity profile] contentlove.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 09:49 pm (UTC)(link)
How I appear in public, what clothes I choose, what colors I wear, whether I want to paint my face or any other part of my body, or not - these are forms of self-expression that I do to please myself and express myself in that moment.

Different days, different choices!

You can please some of the people some of the time...but if you pay attention, you can generally please yourself, and over time I've come to realize that the confidence one exudes when one does just that is really the thing that attracts ;))

[identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 10:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Actually, having slated The Sartorialist, I have to say there's a very nice (and largely suppin) girl on there today. They're in Paris, and they've snapped the cashier at the St Germain branch of American Apparel. Her style (http://bp2.blogger.com/_qjpwnPW4c1o/R5BksqdaHwI/AAAAAAAAC0k/fEvE4gz29rg/s1600-h/JanPlaid.jpg), though, is much better than AA.

Since Sartorialist readers are generally a conservative bunch, the reaction (http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=17177804&postID=3551239435276732004&isPopup=true) is very mixed, running the gamut from "she looks homeless" and "just another hipster" to "a wonderful blend of youthful and conservative".

[identity profile] lord-whimsy.livejournal.com 2008-01-18 10:59 pm (UTC)(link)
I dunno about conservative--I see an awful lot of daring stuff (http://bp3.blogger.com/_qjpwnPW4c1o/R1lF6bxvpEI/AAAAAAAACrE/PuFuac1zm20/s1600-h/BluePurple) on that blog, many aesthetics. Not all of them are bohemian, so maybe that's where you get "conservative".

To me that girl's ensemble is fairly ubiquitous and not very exciting. Cute and endearing on a girlish student, but clownish and sloppy on anyone over 24.

I much prefer this. (http://bp1.blogger.com/_qjpwnPW4c1o/R2kqxKdaHCI/AAAAAAAACu0/eY2raqVg6Rc/s1600-h/Colorist.jpg) It just feels more crisp and coherent.

This guy (http://bp0.blogger.com/_qjpwnPW4c1o/R1vvDLxvpHI/AAAAAAAACrc/Qp0hdsAqeC8/s1600-h/MoryColor.jpg) shows up a lot, and is always dead-on.

And this (http://bp0.blogger.com/_qjpwnPW4c1o/R4spradaHjI/AAAAAAAACy8/aOJpB8BLkPc/s1600-h/redflwr.jpg) however, is utter perfection. Poised and flamboyant. The rumpled collar is just the right touch on an otherwise controlled ensemble. Tailored within an inch of its life. Perfection can take on a freakish quality, sometimes.

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*ahem*

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Re: *ahem*

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Re: *ahem*

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Re: *ahem*

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Plaid-ism

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Re: Plaid-ism

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