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[personal profile] imomus
I heard that Republican party candidate Mike Huckabee had vaulted into the lead in Iowa and that Democratic candidate Barack Obama had taken the lead in polls for the first time in New Hampshire, a key early state.



I heard that these developments had made their political rivals' campaign managers reach in desperation for slander and slur. Bill Shaheen from the Clinton campaign raised the issue of Obama's teenage drug-taking to dent his credibility. He told the Washington Post that the Republicans would target Obama's background. "It'll be, 'When was the last time? Did you ever give drugs to anyone? Did you sell them to anyone?"'

I heard that Huckabee, a Baptist minister, had attacked Mormon Mitt Romney by asking "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"

I heard that evangelical Christians make up about 40% of registered Republicans in Iowa.

I heard that during the first Republican debate in New Hampshire Huckabee responded to a question about evolution by saying "If anybody wants to believe that they are the descendants of a primate, they are certainly welcome to do it." He, however, did not believe it.

I heard from scientists that human beings are primates.



I heard that fewer than 40% of Americans, in a 2005 survey, agreed with the proposition "Human beings, as we know them today, evolved from earlier species of animals". In Britain, Japan, Europe and Scandinavia between 70% and 90% agreed with the same proposition.

I heard Obama say, at the 2004 Democratic National Convention: "Tonight there is not a liberal America and a conservative America, there is the United States of America."

I pondered the things I had heard.

I thought that Obama's statement really wasn't true (or was only true if "tonight" was a very exceptional night, one filled with "the audacity of hope", the speech's title). I thought that, increasingly, the US is two nations divided rather than one united. One of them thinks in quite similar ways to Europe. The other is completely alien -- a place whose irrational views, given further rein or rope, will surely start dragging its economy down to the level of the other much poorer nations which tend to share them.

I heard conservative columnist David Brooks describe the split back in 2001: "In Red America churches are everywhere. In Blue America Thai restaurants are everywhere."

I thought about how there's another split that messes up modern politics. The tragedy of modern politics is that it seeks to combine two incompatible skill sets -- the rhetorical and the administrative. Is there any other job where you'd have to prove yourself rhetorically to achieve an administration post which basically requires you to be an organiser and a technocrat?

I thought about what these mismatched skills -- rhetoric and administration -- actually require. Rhetoric requires wishful thinking. It's all about the future, and dreams, and lies we like to hear, even if we know they're lies. Things like "we are united, not divided" and "we are not related to monkeys". Rhetoric is motivational, inspirational, morale-boosting, mythopoeic, tribal. As long as your fiction is moving and consistent, you can carry an audience. It's an arts skill, playing on empathy and the ability to connect. Admin, on the other hand, has to take stock of facts on the ground, inconvenient truths, existing realities. It calls on scientific skills, careful observation, rationality. Whatever Obama says about there being no red and blue states -- nice rhetoric! -- you can be damn sure his campaign organizers are being more realistic and rational. They're going to remain fully aware of the exact boundaries of red and blue America during the campaign for their candidate. Hope may be unlimited, but their resources are limited.

I wondered if Huckabee, too, would match his rhetorical side with a rational one. Should he be elected American technocrat-administrator-in-chief in 2008, would he -- at the very least -- act as if he held a rational view of the world?



And I wondered if there were some sort of google translation service available which translated Rhetorical statements into Rational ones. A service that would render "There is not a liberal America and a conservative America" into "We really wish that we could overcome the obvious and ruinous divide that exists in this country" and "I don't believe we're descendants of a primate" into "I'm fully aware of the importance of politicized fundamentalist creationist views in swing states like Iowa, therefore of course I'm going to appeal to them". A widget like that would allow us to square the circle, and transform even the craziest rhetoric into rationality.

Then I thought of a saying of Sugar Ape editor Jonatton Yeah? (a character in Nathan Barley). When journalist Dan Ashcroft tells him an article in his magazine is "stupid", Jonatton replies: "Stupid people think it's cool. Smart people think it's a joke; also cool". Applied to the things I heard about America as it enters election year, that could read: "Red states like the stuff politicians say because it's irrational. Blue states listen harder and hear rationality in it."

But then I wondered whether those blue states weren't listening -- or projecting themselves -- too hard into the craziness coming out of places like Iowa. I wondered whether they shouldn't have slightly higher standards for their red state cousins -- shouldn't demand that they actually snap out of it, shape up, and get rational. Not just "rational because we understand the appeal to stupid people of the irrational", but just good old-fashioned rational, admininstration-ready.

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Date: 2007-12-13 11:01 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
You love those flip, flow and pie charts!
("Fact times importance equals news!")

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Date: 2007-12-13 11:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
Yes!

I will vote for whoever offers me pie. Not pie in the sky, however. Pie in charts.

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From: [identity profile] niemandsrose.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-12-13 11:15 am (UTC) - Expand

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From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-12-13 11:18 am (UTC) - Expand

MMMM DELICIOUS!

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Date: 2007-12-13 11:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fishwithissues.livejournal.com
About a year ago you gave a lecture in which you argued for (among many things) emphasizing rhetoric over logic. What did you mean and how have things changed? Did you ever give drugs to anyone? Did you sell them?

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Date: 2007-12-13 11:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fishwithissues.livejournal.com
I'm listening to IT (http://imomus.com/momuslecture.mp3) again now!

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Date: 2007-12-13 11:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chuckdarwin.livejournal.com
I wondered whether they shouldn't have slightly higher standards for their red state cousins -- shouldn't demand that they actually snap out of it, shape up, and get rational.

Liberal standards are high, but Conservatives aren't in the least bit interested in living up to them.

It's difficult to get into the Red Stater mindset... most Bush voters I knew there (I used to live in a red state) were very aware of his flaws, but were voting out of fear.

They were afraid that The Other Guy would give everyone an abortion, let the terrorists win, but too soft on crime, legalise gay marriage, ban guns, etc.

NO ONE ever voted for George Bush because of what he stands for; everyone voted for him to stave off The Other Guy and all that he represents (reason, logic, science, etc).

In other words, we're all fucked.

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Date: 2007-12-13 11:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] niemandsrose.livejournal.com
Makes a blue-stater like me want to get a gun, so that when those nutjobs come to take my dildos away I'll be ready!

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Date: 2007-12-13 11:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] niemandsrose.livejournal.com
Oh, and btw, Lakoff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lakoff#Political_significance_and_involvement) is as close as we've got to a red/blue translator these days. And even he's got flaws.

viva la revolucion

Date: 2007-12-13 11:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] st-ranger.livejournal.com
As a Californian, there's not much I can do about the mentality of people in red states. I actually think of myself as a Californian instead of an American these days-- after spending some time in the South I'm convinced that it really is another country.

Re: viva la revolucion

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Re: viva la revolucion

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Date: 2007-12-13 11:48 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
How can a post-modernist appeal to rationality? Or science? Why is a creationist point of view worth less than an evolutionist one? Where does your relativism stop? How can relativism stop?

On the subjects of pies, you might like Google Chart API (http://code.google.com/apis/chart/). But then again, it's probably the wrong kind of google for you. (Not the search field.)

der.

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Date: 2007-12-13 12:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
I think you're mixing up different categories of things. Post-modernism is a cultural descriptor. We're all -- even you -- in the postmodern era just now. At the dusk of it, perhaps. But that's the culture we still have around us. Most of us (here in Europe, anyway) are also fairly rational, and have respect for science as a set of procedures. There's no incompatibility there. Post-modernism reverses Modernism, not the Enlightenment.

Relativism has its origins in anthropology -- it's the view that we shouldn't think that some cultures are automatically superior to others. And actually that mindset comes out of science: don't cook the books, try to step outside your preconceptions when looking at things.

Relativism can stop -- and should stop -- when it prevents us having our own strong beliefs and fighting for them, even when we can't say they're objectively better than anyone else's. I think relativism also stops when -- as I've been doing recently -- you question the very idea, the possibility, of neutrality; the notion that there's some sort of "offshore" from which you can judge things. I think it also ends when you recognize the need to make your beliefs into a new universal. In a world in which there's really only the "it" and the "other", you really have to be part of the "it" to survive. The other shrinks and wilts. It becomes nothing more than "the not it", and that's not good enough.

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Date: 2007-12-13 12:26 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
RON PAUL 2008!

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Date: 2007-12-13 12:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] girfan.livejournal.com
I'm in a similar situation to [livejournal.com profile] chuckdarwin (American who married English-in my case man-and moved to the UK).
I read about Huckabee and am glad to live where I do and sad for the country of my birth (especially if that person is elected!). I can still vote in US elections and do so (though have no idea if the absentee ballots were counted or thrown away) and will vote to keep that moron out of the White House! It's bad enough one has been there for the past 7 years!

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Date: 2007-12-13 04:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chuckdarwin.livejournal.com
Hi GIRfan -

I think the problem is that people in the US are largely Fat and Happy: they have their job, house, SUV, etc., and they just don't give a fuck about politics outside of a few Wedge Issues like abortion or gay rights. Such a populace is very easy to exploit, which is what's been happening there for years. Politicians come along and push the same old tired buttons and get elected without ever bringing a single new idea or viable plan to the table. Rational people stay home in droves, and terrible things happen because people have lost faith in the entire system.

People tend to be much more invested in their city council meetings/school board meetings than they are in national politics.

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Date: 2007-12-13 12:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lunarflares.livejournal.com
I recall very dearly having my spirit broken, in terms of how far sunk and corroded rationality is, even in my otherwise lovely corner of the Pacific Northwest. My high school and social circle were all quite on the Thai Restaurant side of things, rather than the church side, though certainly I encounter a good many of every sort of person.

However, one summer during high school (this was only three years ago, for me), I was working a cog job at a Big Company. As I was walking to get some paperclips and passed a group of people having an argument (I knew they meant business because they had left their cubicles for the matter). They stopped me. "Lunarflares! Hey, come here. Carl thinks that whales have FINGER BONES. He says his uncle got him a finger bone from a whale for his birthday! Do whales have FINGER BONES, man?" Now, I, being fresh out of a required high school biology class, thought this could be a moment to shine in front of the group of about a dozen 40-somethings awaiting my reply.

"Actually, whales DO have finger bones, even though they don't have visibly independent fingers. It's a homologous structure with humans, since we all came from the same sea creature at some point, but whales stayed there so they grew flippers around the finger bones. Bats have finger bones, too."

The response was an immediate disappearance of any mirth from their countenances. My boss was among them, and said, "That sounds like evolution."

"Well, I guess it is. But, I mean, we have whale skeletons, you can look and see that they have those finger bones, regardless of how you think they got them..."

"Why don't you go sit down and get back to work."

And I looked around me, and realized that not a single person was less than disgusted with my response. I felt something between anger, fear, and utter despair. I thought that kind of thinking was reserved for the deep, red South, but apparently the stench of fundamentalism and irrationality has begun to permeate Northwards.

There are a million things I love about America (though, to be fair, a good many of them are geographical). However, I fear very, very much that this apparent rift in beliefs -- the red state, blue state theory -- is not so much a division as a wave of ignorance that's slowly creeping up on the shores of rational thought.

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Date: 2007-12-13 01:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fireflesh.livejournal.com
...the stench of fundamentalism and irrationality has begun to permeate Northwards.

How on earth is it the fault of the American South that you work with Carl the creationist in the Pacific Northwest?! "Stench"? Don't be insulting.

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blanket stereotypes of my country

Date: 2007-12-13 01:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fireflesh.livejournal.com
As the native daughter of a Southeastern "blue state" recently turned "red," I beg you not to perpetuate the idiotic fallacy of color-coding our states.

Incidentally, there is a Thai restaurant down the street from my mother, whose friends and neighbors I assure you are perfectly rational, reasonable and productive human beings. In no way are Southerners simply some mass of embarrassingly simple-minded cousins that no one else in the country will invite to dinner with the boss.

Re: blanket stereotypes of my country

Date: 2007-12-13 01:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
As the native daughter of a Southeastern "blue state" recently turned "red," I beg you not to perpetuate the idiotic fallacy of color-coding our states.

So are you saying that nothing happened when your blue state went red? Are you going to tell me "we're all the same, but also "there are a million subtle variegations between us"? If so, do you have a political system which reflects that? Both the "same" bit and the "various" bit?

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Date: 2007-12-13 02:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eclectiktronik.livejournal.com
surely the 'FREE MARKET' as the highest value is what unites american political parties. In that sense they're the same, republicans and democrats. Both,amongst other things, awarded tax breaks to the rich corporations - who later relocated to mexico anyway!
Similar to many other places on the planet, they are owned and operated by large military-industrial corporations, along with a benign media. You just don't hear any alternative discourses. sure the republicans seem to appeal more to the bible bashers but the diferences I perceive are largely cosmetic. Continuity not change seems to be the agenda all-round...

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Date: 2007-12-13 03:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ex-newironsh15.livejournal.com
and let's not forget that sense of american exceptionalism

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Date: 2007-12-13 02:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kumakouji.livejournal.com
Theres so much over-generalising going on by some of the people claiming to be the level headed liberals, this post calling for rationalism over rhetoric is almost ironic.

Firstly, It's not as simple as "Red states = christian irrationals" Vs. "Blue states = secular rationals":

The Barna group (http://www.barna.org/) in January 2008 released a report (http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=105) measuring Republicans and Democrats on Christian commitment. Contrary popular stereotypes, the difference between the democrats and republicans weren't as big as is popularly believed. A summery of the report's findings are as follows:

"According to survey results, 57 percent of Republicans assert that the Bible is accurate in all of the principles it teaches compared to 40 percent of Democrats. Republicans are also twice as likely to believe Satan is a real spiritual entity (33 percent versus 17 percent); more likely to reject the idea that good works can earn salvation (35 percent versus 23 percent); more commonly describe themselves as absolutely committed to Christianity (61 percent versus 48 percent); more likely to deem their religious faith to be important in their life (77 percent versus 67 percent); and more likely to believe that God is the all-knowing, perfect Creator and Ruler of the universe (75 percent to 65 percent)."

So that completely scraps the stereotype regarding red states being full of irrational god fearers - only 60% of Republicans are Christian vs. a higher than expected 40% for democrats.

Also, look at this 2004 chart documenting percentage of republican/democrat voters:

Image

Notice anything? The mass of red is predominantly in the mid-west, not the south. Also, there are hardly any predominantly democrat states.

This is a deeply complex issue, you're not gonna get anywhere with populist generalisations.

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Date: 2007-12-13 02:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cerulicante.livejournal.com
But if they can't generalize, spout screed from DU.com and bitch about Bushitler, then they ACTUALLY HAVE TO THINK THINGS THROUGH BEFORE THEY POST A COMMENT.

It's a horrible torture for them, indeed, worthy of Guantanamo Bay and the CIA.

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From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2007-12-13 03:43 pm (UTC) - Expand

A little more info on Huckabee

Date: 2007-12-13 03:00 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
In case you missed it please read Huckabee's lovely remarks about isolating homosexuals from the rest of the public as good health measure. Here's just a taste:

"If the federal government is truly serious about doing something with the AIDS virus, we need to take steps that would isolate the carriers of this plague."

More:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071208/ap_po/huckabee_aids

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Date: 2007-12-13 03:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] butterflyrobert.livejournal.com
My only criticism of this piece is that irratiionality (and, by extension, rationality) comes in many different flavors. Your view of irrationality in this post seems to encompass only the bitterest (and stupidest) variety. And, by extension, your view of rationality here is sickly sweet. I don't think that life is so black-and-white, though the American political system seems to be.

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Date: 2007-12-13 03:39 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
primary + candidate = primate

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Date: 2007-12-13 05:02 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
i find it tiresome to dissect my neighbors and fellow citizens beliefs... they are unlikely to change. i'm much more concerned about repeated attempts to reform the electoral process by both republicans and democrats in key states where the shift would mire us even more in a long-winded and possibly tainted vote-counting scenario.

my view is: play by the rules and if you want to see people change their political ideology then you have to help demonstrate that you are an acceptable element of their ideal surroundings. it is far easier to complain and accent the divide than it is to reach out and demonstrate a shared commitment to society's good. applicable to both sides.

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Date: 2007-12-13 07:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] microworlds.livejournal.com
"Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"

If you're going to attack Mormons, at least get your facts straight, Huckabee. It's believed that God and Satan are brothers, not Jesus and Satan. (says the unofficial Mormon representative of Click Opera)

Anyway, my English teacher last year told us how her brother went to Oxy with Barack, and how they smoked weed with each other while listening to the B-52s. He went by "Barry" back then.

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Date: 2007-12-13 07:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kumakouji.livejournal.com
Are you mormon? I'm not an expert on mormonism or anything but I'm pretty you shouldn't be using that computer and if the leader finds out your ass is totally excommunicated.


wait, no, that's Amish. and I'm keeping the above sentance in my message just to show what an idiot I am. Whatever. One bullshit cult is the same as the next one, AMIRITE?
.

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I wonder I thought I heard!

Date: 2007-12-13 08:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pay-option07.livejournal.com
Similar to a Canadian fallacy you might have. The characters of the "LONG WAY AROUND" Charly Boorman and Ewan MacGregar where greatly surprised
to find themselves twice near traffic fatalities and the victims of personal theft. www.longwayround.com/lwr.htm

A blanket stereotype can unravel easily especially when the ecological fallacy is nothing more than a dag sniffing it's own ass for too long.

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Date: 2007-12-13 09:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] beketaten.livejournal.com
I can only agree with you on this one.

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Date: 2007-12-13 09:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] written-improv.livejournal.com
talking heads broadcast by rupert murdoch and ted turner.. they MUST have something legitimate to say!

Voting for dental work and coiffure.

Date: 2007-12-13 10:36 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Whilst I agree in the main with your paradigm I have to ask to what degree is this red/blue binary really represented or personified in America's political parties?
I have to agree with Eclectiktronik's assessment of the political differences between Republicans and Democrats as being largely cosmetic. In contemporary politics -and particularly those of the U.S. - the old right/left dichotomy is effectively redundant and it is more of a playground popularity contest than an electoral conflict of ethics that wins the day.
Rationality and plain-speaking have become so far removed from this contests that their implementation in a political campaign would seem dangerous and threatening to voters inculcated toward slick mendacity and anodyne marketing pitches.
Hillary isn't going to put an end to state approved torture or close down Guantanamo Bay and the Democrats have a fine track history in implementing right-wing economic legislation that the Republicans just couldn't get away with.
If I were American voting Democrat would just be reflexive vote against the slightly greater of the two evils.
You can apply the cigarette paper analogy....
Thomas Scott.

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Date: 2007-12-14 12:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
Update: I heard that Shaheen, manager of the Clinton campaign, had resigned over the Obama drug remarks.

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Date: 2007-12-14 12:44 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I suspect the Republicans want the teenage coke-head Obama in place, as the easiest-to-defeat Democrat candidate. I assume Momus, as an anti-drug person, does to.

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Date: 2007-12-14 06:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lupoleboucher.livejournal.com
The Chronicle of Higher Education is probably worth reading on this subject:
http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=w218t7yc6kv2lhqvrq4450bllm36hgjc