imomus: (Default)
[personal profile] imomus
"There is no hope for liberals if they seek only to imitate conservatives, and no function either," said J.K. Galbraith, who died yesterday. You could extend that idea: there is no hope for peace if peace demonstrators, deep down, think war, death and aggression are cool.

Yesterday was a strange and interesting day. I began it by joining the March for Peace, Justice and Democracy on Broadway. The marchers carried banners saying "Fuck Bush" and chanted "1-2-3-4, We don't want your fucking war, 5-6-7-8, Fuck the cops, smash the state". I couldn't help wondering what kind of peace demonstration calls for things to be fucked and smashed, and, as a socialist who believes in the state and in civic order, I left the demo rewriting the chant in my head: how about "improve the cops, improve the state"? No? Too wishy-washy for you?



These thoughts were focused beautifully at the Whitney's Peace Tower demonstration in the evening. An event which could have been sanctimonious, worthy and boring turned out to be nothing less than explosive, full of fascinating contrasts.

The idea was to celebrate the original Peace Tower built in 1966 by Mark di Suvero as a protest against the Vietnam War. This tower has been reconstructed in the Whitney courtyard by di Suvero and Rirkrit Tiravanija. The evening began with a blonde lady singing Dylan's "Masters of War" (complete with Martin Luther King samples and Muslim calls to prayer) in a sententious "invocation" reminiscent of the very American moment when some over-wrought soul singer warbles "Amazing Grace" a capella in a baseball stadium. Call it "motivational melisma". This was followed by some of the veterans of the original peace tower in LA reminiscing about it, 60s radicals who'd been hounded by the security services for their political activities (one brandished his FBI file, full of hilarious references to "young men of unkempt appearance demonstrating against the war in art galleries").

I then sang five songs (Morality is Vanity, Beowulf, Frilly Military, I Refuse To Die and Tinnitus), executing my usual deformed twitches, Japanese girl poses and fake folk dances. There were more speeches, which I missed because I was clearing my gear out. When I got back, thrashcore band Apeshit started up. They played a set of screeching, jerky noise. I screwed in my earplugs, and noticed children in the room covering their ears in dismay. The older people, the 60s veterans, also looked pained, and many of them left. Basically all the frail people, the people who need the benign protection of other people, left the room. The strong remained.



I saw John Giorno pacing about, looking pensive, while Apeshit played. How would he follow this punky, nihilistic din? But Giorno is an old pro, a master of the crowd as well as a world-class poet and veteran Beat. He performed two long lyrics from memory, enunciating forcefully and clearly. Here's the second one, an excellent political allegory about a tree:

There Was A Bad Tree

After Giorno, a Japanese (well, the drummer is Chinese) group called New Humans set some fluorescent tubes on the floor and began slowly fading up pure feedback from their instruments. Intense, still and concentrated, they looked like Buddhist monks meditating. Rhythms began, an organic tattoo played with sticks on the back of a speaker cabinet. Then there was a "song", but strikingly original, sculptural, made of sheets of harsh concentrated noise. I thought New Humans were great, fresh and pure, proof that rock music doesn't have to be Dionysian, sharky, populist, fascist; it doesn't have to use exhausted rhetorics and hackneyed structures to whip up the crowd.



It was at this point that the evening took an extraordinary turn. DeeDee Halleck of Deep Dish TV, the radical video-makers whose excellent documentary about Iraq Shocking and Awful can be found in between the gift store and the toilets (the Whitney have taken some flak for siting it there), took the podium. She told us that she'd brought Faiza Al-Arji, an Iraqi woman whose blog A Family in Baghdad details everyday life in Iraq under the American occupation. But, close to tears, DeeDee told us that Faiza had decided not to speak, and had left. "I think it was the music that did it," she said. "I think she felt it was the kind of music that the American soldiers in Iraq listen to in their tanks."

At this, Ian Vanek of Japanther, who was setting up his drumkit for the band's performance, exploded in rage. "That's fucked," he interrupted. "What do you mean, the music they listen to in the tanks? We're trying to set up a fucking rock show here, and you tell us this is the music they listen to in tanks? That is so fucked! We support our troops in Iraq!"

Halleck left, looking bewildered. Other speakers calmed Vanek down with calls that he at least respect Halleck's right to speak, and someone tried to smooth things out with the statement that "A lot of the artists who performed tonight are motivated by deep anger at the way things are, and they need to express that anger in the music they play".

I ran over to the fraught Halleck and told her that I thought she'd made a good and important point. What does it mean to advocate peace using the textures, rhetorics and semantics of war? How can you be into peace when you're talking about fucking x and smashing y? And what does it mean that a representative -- the only representative -- of the people supposedly being helped by this evening's events, the Iraqis, sensed a deeply alienating menace and aggression in the music being played, and associated it with the spirit of the occupation?

Having shouted down a radical video-maker, Japanther took the stage, and played a populist set accompanied by two giant styrofoam puppets, grotesque Garfield-type figures decorated with fanged skull motifs and Satanism-ready, Thanatos-friendly phrases like "Moloch" and "Pack of Spades". One puppet was a lion with a knife, the other a chainsaw-wielding cat, and they proceeded to dance about in the crowd, hacking each other to bits like a gigantic Tom and Jerry. In other circumstances it might have been fun, but in the light of Vanek's disgusting dressing-down of Halleck and (by implication) her Iraqi friend, it was actually pretty obnoxious. Japanther's music showed none of the formal originality of New Humans' sheets of abstract noise; it's punked-up surf music, a lo-fi, speeded-up rehash of 90s American alternarock.

I left before the end, and met the Japanese musicians from New Humans on the street. They were also skipping Japanther's set, riding the subway home with a nice guy who turned out to be a friend of Marxy's. (Here's an mp3 compiling some of the evening's sounds. You hear the Broadway peace demonstrators, followed by Apeshit, followed by New Humans, followed by Japanther.)

Back home, I googled Japanther and found a Brooklyn girl called Laura talking on her blog about the swimming pool gig the band played last week. The conversation turned to clothes, some boutique called F21, which Laura thought sounded "like a cool code... or a fighter jet".

It's a small detail, but, like the fanged skulls on Japanther's puppets, it really brought home to me how little Americans in their 20s care for the iconography, the textures of peace. The Whitney's problem, in trying to assemble a 1960s-style program combining peace speeches and music, is that rock music today comes from a subculture that doesn't celebrate peace. It comes from a dark, nihilistic place more in love with death than life. Forty years ago that wouldn't have been the case. The rock music of 1966 would have been charged with Eros, not Thanatos.

The plant imagery of Giorno's poem, and its humane message, marked him out as someone who loves life, and his poem is about peaceful co-existence with nature. These are the values of the 1960s Peace Tower veterans, but they're also values I can see in the blogs of young Japanese -- Rinko Kawauchi's photojournal, for instance. The flower imagery Kawauchi loves so much is mirrored in the photos Faiza Al-Arji takes in her Baghdad garden and shows in Pictures in Baghdad, her photoblog. Unfortunately, on last night's evidence, America's rocking and awful subculture seems more in love with power than flowers. It really does sound more like a man stuck under a tank hatch or glassed into a jet cockpit than a woman watering her garden.
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(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 12:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] beingjdc.livejournal.com
*checks out the blog*

In fact, this country needs leaders like Naoem Chomsky, even though he is a Jew

Hmm.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 12:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
American national pride -- not to mention our need to defend rock music -- does now require that we deconstruct Faiza's credibility. So it's to be anti-Semitism, is it?

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Date: 2006-04-30 12:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lucaskrech.livejournal.com
It really is sad that most peace demonstrations do end up being demonstrations of anger and aggression. As though fire will quench the flames.

Peace,

-L

smash the state

Date: 2006-04-30 12:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kaipfeiffer.livejournal.com
it's really quite a bit of irony, the ones protesting against bush wanting to "smash the state", while their "enemy" is just (and consciously) doing exactly that ...

Re: smash the state

Date: 2006-04-30 12:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
Exactly. Iraq today is the perfect example of what happens when you smash the state. Only the strong survive. It's a bit like the emptying of the room that happens when a thrashcore band starts up. Some people react with glee, but others look frightened and cover their ears. In fact, you see a mild example of the same thing on a Saturday night on the streets of any big city. Some people love the disorder, whoop and shout. But you see others -- mostly women walking alone -- looking nervous.

Re: smash the state

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Re: smash the state

From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com - Date: 2006-04-30 01:44 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: smash the state

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Re: smash the state

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Re: smash the state

From: [identity profile] jean-djinni.livejournal.com - Date: 2006-04-30 11:51 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 12:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mo-no-chrome.livejournal.com
"There is no hope for liberals if they seek only to imitate conservatives, and no function either,"

The best book on this subject, and the only one of those riding the Michael Moore which actually has constructive suggestions, is George Lakoff's Don't Think of an Elephant, in which he discusses the way in which debates are framed and the impossibility of arguing one's point when taking on the discourse of one's opponent - 'family values', for example, or 'pro-life'.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 12:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enchochada.livejournal.com
Aberystwyth (where I live) is celebrating Social Forum Cymru (http://www.socialforumcymru) this weekend, and the event you cite seems similar to some of the things we've had going on here. Here's (http://www.casi.org.uk/info/25laments.html) a poem about Baghdad - the poet, Robert Minhinnick showed his film, 'Black Hands', which I think you would appreciate. We didn't have any alternarock bands, alas, although we did have Chilean revolutionary music, ambient dj-ing and some psychedelic rock. Plus Attilla the stockbroker!

(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 01:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cap-scaleman.livejournal.com
Once when I was talking to one of my politically active friends she suddenly uttered "I want to fight!" and I replied "Uh, what? Why do you want to do that? It's not cool." so she said "Well, I don't like violence, but fighting is, like, the shit.". I do hope it was said with some kind of sarcasm... Just a wee bit(unlike Japanthers drummer, who does he think he is anway?).

(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 01:34 pm (UTC)
aberrantangels: (I want to fuck with you all)
From: [personal profile] aberrantangels
In the 60s, they used to say that fighting for peace is like fucking for chastity. It still is, but people don't say it so much anymore. Thanks for the reminder!

And thanks for the Galbraith quote. Personally, I'm fond of "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." I'd have written an entry in my journal quoting it, if I could have found the Bryan Zepp Jamieson quote I wanted to use as a follow-up.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 06:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mistresshellena.livejournal.com
Yes, I'm jumping on the band wagon of thanks for airing this opinion. It makes so much sense to me, but hadn't really gelled until now.

There was an excellent documentary "The Gate of Heavenly Peace" (http://www.tsquare.tv/) about Tiananmen Square and the student democratic movement which argued that they ultimately took up the language of the opressor and that was one reason they failed. This is a major redux of a well articulated, thorough, 3 hour film, so please forgive my broad stroke summary of it.

(no subject)

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(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 02:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bikerbar.livejournal.com
Love is but a song to sing
Fear's the way we die
You can make the mountains ring
Or make the angels cry
Though the bird is on the wing
And you may not know why

Come on people now
Smile on your brother
Everybody get together
Try to love one another
Right now

Some may come and some may go
We shall surely pass
When the one that left us here
Returns for us at last
We are but a moment's sunlight
Fading in the grass

If you hear the song I sing
You will understand (listen!)
You hold the key to love and fear
All in your trembling hand
Just one key unlocks them both
It's there at you command

Come on people now
Smile on your brother
Everybody get together
Try to love one another
Right now

fanged skull motifs and Satanism-ready phrases

Date: 2006-04-30 02:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bluedevi.livejournal.com
Only tenuously related, but: I'm writing a book about my travels last year and I'm currently working on a chapter about Japanese paganism and how it fits into their overall scheme of spirituality. I've been referring back to your post about paganism and Satanism which I read while staying in Nikko. Would you mind if I quoted you?

(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 02:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] contentlove.livejournal.com
Forty years ago that wouldn't have been the case. The rock music of 1966 would have been charged with Eros, not Thanatos.

Some of it, sure, just like today. There's a great irony at play here as there is a certain visible lineage from the MC5 to the Japanthers.

In the end, everything intertwines.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 03:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
I wouldn't say "everything intertwines". I'd say "this war continues":

"MC5 celebrated the holy trinity of sex, drugs, and rock roll, their incendiary live sets offering a defiantly bacchanalian counterpoint to the peace-and-love reveries of their hippie contemporaries."

Count me with the hippies, and against the MC5.

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an aside

Date: 2006-04-30 02:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dzima.livejournal.com
Since Japanther were brought to fame by Vice, I reckon that Momus is now over that magazine by now.

And it's not only violence their aesthetic is supporting, sheer boredom is also a cause/consequence of it.

Re: an aside

Date: 2006-04-30 02:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
I haven't written for Vice since they turned down my idea to do a piece satirizing skull saturation. I thought they were iconoclastic, people who held nothing sacred, but skulls apparently were beyond mockery.

Re: an aside

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Re: an aside

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japanther gig clips

Date: 2006-04-30 02:51 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
If anyone's interested, I've put up two short clips of Japanther's performance:

Japanther #1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt3yOomxXMM)

Japanther #2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAq8WWSf2TM)

I came late for the event, and arrived just as Japanther started their set. Thanks for writing about what happened before, it really put their performance in context.

- notchy (http://www.notchet.com)

(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 02:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] freesurfboards.livejournal.com
all revolutions based on anger were just manipulated to be put in the hands of those who wanted to grab power, or were really the rich ones before anyway.

The best way to subvert and completely overthrow the system is to not buy into consumerism, which would leave them with no money and without us fiending for our next ipod then they would have no power over us.

Wow, this is a really hippy conclusion, but I still mean it - If everyone came to peace with themselves then that would be the perfect revolution. Of course it's not going to happen, but I'm trying to convinence people one by one.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 03:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] samuellsamson.livejournal.com
"1-2-3-4, We don't want your fucking war, 5-6-7-8, Fuck the cops, smash the state"

Many police officers don't have very active sexlives, which may contribute to their levels of inchoate aggression. Maybe that part's worth a try. No I'm not volunteering.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 03:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cerulicante.livejournal.com
Vietnam was an earthshaking event because it demonstrated that being stupid in large groups could affect national policy in a much shorter time than using the political system itself. Ever since then, whenever some crackpot wants to fuck little boys or espouse the complete destruction of Israel, he gets 5000 of his like-minded friends and goes to protest to short-circuit the normal order of using the political system.

For Momus, who states that he is "a socialist who believes in the state and in civic order," this has to be the ultimate insult to his ideology, since violent protests and economic threats (like the illegals are planning) completely threaten the civic order and safety of others. It's as if a small group of people is saying "Our needs are more important than the majority and we are willing to do whatever it takes to force our viewpoint onto them." If that isn't ruining civic order, then Momus and I disagree on a fundamental level about what civic order is.

R.A. Heinlein had a nice quote about pure pacifism: "Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty," and this rings true today as people who decry Bush, the war on Iraq and Israel's fictitious occupation of a "Palestinian" state that doesn't exist can't produce any real solution other than an idealist meme they shout over and over.


Protesting may have worked 35 years ago, but taking to the streets and screaming and yelling and making up stories for "impact" just turn off the rest of the population that works and pays taxes. The protesters render themselves impotent by thinking that they can win entirely by sheer shock value and not need anything in the political system. The US Democratic party has become a confederation of lunatics (Sheehan), dissemblers (Kerry), criminals (illegal immigrants) and no fresh ideas beyond the old "we're the UNrepublican party!"

(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 03:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cerulicante.livejournal.com
By the way, the "crackpot wants to fuck little boys" refers to the horrid goblins over at NAMBLA.

May they all be arrested for their sickening habits.

(no subject)

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Date: 2006-04-30 04:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] henryperri.livejournal.com
The David Crosby types from the 60s took hallucinogenics, had visions of rainbows and unicorns dancing in fields, and decided that peace was the answer. The Brooklyn/art/music set are more likely to use alcohol and coke.

Let's also not forget that the 60s produced the Weathermen types who did try to blow up the state. These same people are now teaching our children in our public universities. Hilarious!

The same people who tell us America is a fascist police state wax poetic about the wonderfulness of Iran, ignoring the fact that their president has recently cracked down on all broadcasts of western or "indecent" music. Sounds like a great place to live! Don't all try to move there at once, now!

(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 05:02 pm (UTC)
aberrantangels: (I don't trust you dogfuckers)
From: [personal profile] aberrantangels
The same people who tell us America is a fascist police state wax poetic about the wonderfulness of Iran

Really? All these people, without exception? I'd be surprised if you can find even one person anywhere left of center "wax[ing] poetic about the wonderfulness of Iran", and wouldn't believe it until I saw the quote. (I have no brief for Iran myself, but that doesn't oblige me to wax poetic about the wonderfulness of George W. Bush the way it does you; personally, I think Dubya and Ahmedinajad should, and in a just world would, be locked in a box together and shaken.)

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Date: 2006-04-30 04:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] runawaytoday.livejournal.com
ive always known that japanther was evil, as well as every other uppercrust boy party art collective in brooklyn. like certain suburbia-male-vomit inducing video collabs that display alot of digital BLACKFACE, and need to stop being so fucking racist and making Jeffrey Deitch look like a complete fucking idiot in his own gallery, when there are prada-clad bitches standing around sipping champagne and wondering about whether or not they should laugh at the blackface and get laid by said mysterious harmony korine wannabevideoartist.. or just shut their fucking traps.. its like a neo-shamanistic machowonderland. and umm, i guess ian thinks he's jackson pollick or something. NEEDS TO DIE. and also the phrase "thats fucked" is dumb too.

LOL

Date: 2006-05-05 07:45 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I think you're post is about something else and has it's own baggage. NEEDS TO DIE
that's not in the spirit of peace, and i agree with Ian. I got to say "thats fucked".

(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 05:16 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Wonderful post Nick, thank you.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 05:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] desant012.livejournal.com
The loudest voices are often from the smallest minority. Most people in their 20s aren't violent or nihilistic like you see in the downtown/Brooklyn scene... for the most part people just want peace in their own personal lives. A lot of the young kids who can afford to live in NYC and then have huge amounts of free time to set up these shows aren't really representative of how most of the culture is right now.

If you do have the money to live in NYC through hard work and long hours, the last thing you want is death, and the most love and -something else- (creation).

What you're seeing from white America in Brooklyn is just culture among the affluent ... you can see that on MTV any day of the week, and it's always been violent and nihilistic. The native-born kids of immigrants in Brooklyn I know are all moving to New Jersey to escape the ridiculously high rents, and they're creative professionals, too.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 05:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kojapan.livejournal.com
I have to agree with you there.

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Dark Symbolism and Aggression Explained

Date: 2006-04-30 05:38 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I've noticed that many young people have found it hip to appropriate the aesthetic tropes of hardcore and black metal as a way of reacting against twee indie rock. It seems to be an expression of irreverance within and against that "indie" subculture. I think that's why you feel Japanther might be a "rehash of 90s American alternarock"; in the 90's alternarock/grunge became so popular that it became the dominant genre of music and rather unhip (with the immense commercial success of all the post-Nirvana modern rock bands of the 90's). Belle and Sebastian and Pavement provided an alternative for savvy music fans but they eventually became too popular to be remain hip. So it's not hard to imagine why a return to aggressive alternarock ten years later is hip in the independent music scene. What's at play here is also a way of pretending to be poorer than you are, which has always been cool-- even in the sixties--Dylan for example. For the hip, privileged youth, tapered black jeans and plain black hooded sweatshirts are a uniform that bucks the hipster hegemony of colorful thrift store attire while simultaneously attempting to signify one's lack of money. And taking it one step further are the dark symbols of skulls and aggression which come from the hardcore/black metal scene. That's my impression of Japanther's vibe, though I don't know their music too well. Also, I should admit that most of my anthropological research comes from studying the employees at Kim's on 114th and Broadway where I go to college.

Re: Dark Symbolism and Aggression Explained

Date: 2006-04-30 05:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
You left out tattoos! I think the reason Vice didn't run with a piece declaring skulls over is that half the staff have tattoos of skulls somewhere on their bodies. It's painful having a tattoo blotted out, you need skin grafts.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 05:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cityramica.livejournal.com
will you be participating in the rallies and boycotts tomorrow, May 1, Nick?

(no subject)

Date: 2006-04-30 05:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
I shall let the Lord my God be my guide, Mischa. If he wills that my path shall cross that of the demonstrators, and that I shall lift and bear their heavy cross, so be it, let His will be done.

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From: [identity profile] cityramica.livejournal.com - Date: 2006-04-30 06:07 pm (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 2006-04-30 06:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
By the way, I should say that beyond Williamsburg and its skulls and tired metal imagery, there's Bushwick, where a new generation of artists is incubating. Alexandre Singh is one of these -- the guy whose hairstyle "won" the hairstyles entry the other day. And his work is a world away from the awful metal cliches of Williamsburg hipsters. As demonstrated at the Coloring Book event we had at PS1, Alex's art takes the form of tall tales, presented in highly restrained, gently humourous slide shows. The only parallels I could find were with Brian Dewan (http://www.asteriskpix.com/ffire/dewan.mov) (a Williamsburgher by geography, but a somewhat Lynchian figure, mixing 1950s suits and a sombre, moderated delivery with a fascination with grotesquerie and menace) and the film-maker Patrick Keillor (http://www.luxonline.org.uk/articles/essays/patrick_keiller/detail6.html). I like to think this is the style of the future, a sort of new Classicism.

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Date: 2006-04-30 06:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
(That essay on Patrick Keillor starts here (http://www.luxonline.org.uk/articles/essays/patrick_keiller/detail1.html).)

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Date: 2006-04-30 07:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] uberdionysus.livejournal.com
Momus, I'm sad I missed you, but I was sick. I still went out, but only two blocks from my home, and I would have loved to have been where you were.

Still, your essentialism and need to categorize is disheartening, and a disservice to yourself and your readers. And a few of this entry's grand proclamations are simply wrong.

Yes, current rock is closely aligned with Thanatos, but it ALWAYS has been. It's predecessor, blues, was also deeply entranced with anger and death (much more than 'love' and never with peace). Secondly, as a fan of music, you know that 60s music was as obsessed with Thanatos as the music of today, if not more so. The false veneer of history that pretends that the music was peaceful and happy is a lie and a myth. Sure, there were a few groups that were not like that (The Greatful Dead, I would argue, is one of the groups that never aligned themselves with Thanatos, which is probably why I didn't love them) but MOST were more on the nihilistic death end, then not. But you know all this. Why are you saying differently?

Speaking of John Giorno and Thanatos. One of my favorite video tapes when I was a youth was a John Giorno thing that included Einsturzende Neubauten, the Swans, Diamanda Galas, and others who were making DEEPLY pessimistic and nihilistic music. Their music, in other words, was totally intrall with Thanatos. The TAPE was deeply inbribed with Thanatos, Giorno included.

And anger is necessary, esp. now. Do you disagree? The 60s civil rights movement didn't glide into town on happy thoughts. Neither did the DNC in S. Africa. On and on, including even Ghandi's movement which was filled with righteous anger and a desire to smash the structure around them.

What we in the U.S. need right now is more anger, not less. We need righteous anger that sinks into the remaining 34% who still believe. We need anything that raises the awareness of the lies that enrapture this country.

Lastly, I know Ian and I know his stance on the war, and he's as anti-Iraq War as you can get. But I think his anger is warranted. You make it seem as if she made a gross categorization, and as if she used the type of thinking that refuses to see behind personal experience and limited viewpoints. Remember that she responded to the music you LIKED, not the music you didn't like (Japanther’s music). I can’t see in her head, but my guess is that she heard the aggression and anger and didn't know how to categorize it and simply lumped it with the aggression and anger in HER life (which is all at the hands of the U.S. troops). It sounds like the response of a mom who cant understand youth culture (which at this point is 30 years old). It doesnt sound like the response of a person with a rational claim about the underlying ideology behind contemporary music.

Lastly, if she IS making a rational claim, than the implicit claim is that the music you liked, and most likely your own, is aligned with the troops destroying her home. Understandable, but I don't buy it, and obviously Ian doesn't buy it, and if you buy it, you have to include yourself, and the music you like, and can't slip out of her blanket condemnation. She didn't hear Japanther. She heard the Japanese group. And you. So no excuses. If you buy her claim, YOU are implicit. Ian's comments are after the fact, and have little to do with what she said.

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Date: 2006-04-30 07:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] desant012.livejournal.com
Righteous anger and nihilism are privileges that require some pretty nice leisure time. It's easy to preach that people need to follow your causes with equal conviction, but it's important to understand why a lot of people just don't care.

In the 60s so many people cared because they themselves or their brothers or boyfriends could be sent off to die. Survival. What's survival now? Working 40 to 60-hour weeks to pay rent and stay afloat.

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Date: 2006-04-30 07:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lostchic007.livejournal.com
I know what you mean... I just resently sewed the letters "fight for peace" in a flower pattern on this shirt i like to wear. It was an ironic message that came to me one night when I decided that the only tools I have seen in the quest for a more peaceful world are riots and bombs and warfare. It sickens me to think that my country cannot seem to find other methods... I mean goodness we're even killing ourselves with the food we eat! I don't know what life is like in other countries... so all I can say is that I hope everyone can find other ways of sublimation, like art or writing or even ridding a bike. Love is so much more effective than hate.

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Date: 2006-04-30 07:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] armoire-man.livejournal.com
"We're a bunch of infantile, self-righteous, asinine, intellectually masturbatory artistes with hairtrigger hostility problems, and we're for peace!"

Asshats. Asshats, asshats, asshats. God.

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Date: 2006-04-30 08:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lord-whimsy.livejournal.com
Most people will judge a point of view by the fruit it bears, and if the people who howl for a more civilized society act and look uncivilized, well...

Their predictability undermines their credibility.

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