Hazel Markus
Dec. 9th, 2004 01:16 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
imomusYesterday's discussion of the differences in tone between Japanese and American participants on the Japan Today Pop Vox page led to an interesting reference from Sparkligbeatnic to the work of Hazel Markus, Professor of Cultural Psychology at Stanford University. I watched a video of Markus outlining her interests and summarizing research findings into cultural differences between the American and Japanese senses of selfhood, and found it very much in line with the kind of points I've been making on Click Opera.
I was taking notes as I watched the video, so I thought I'd just turn these notes into today's entry, because I think some very important points are being made here, points that I'd like to be considered in the passionate cultural debates that happen so often in these pages as well as over at Marxy's blog, Neomarxisme. The notes are really for people who don't have the time or the bandwidth to watch the video, but I'd also like a permanent record to refer back to when these issues come up again in the future, as I'm sure they will. (So if you're reading this from the future, hello future!)
Notes taken from a video interview with Hazel Markus
people need other people to become human
to become a person you have to engage in various social meaning systems
that's a social, cultural project
social sciences have been dominated for the last 25 or 30 years by the computer as metaphor for the human:
the idea that most minds are pretty much the same, people are pretty much the same wherever you go
now we're recognizing that people have very different perceptions and orientations.
there's been a shift of emphasis: culture is not what you are but what you do
selfhood: who am i?
american answer: i am an independent autonomous entity made of a set of attributes, preferences, opinions, thoughts, abilities.
the goal of being a person is to try to express these attributes in behaviour, maintain independence, stay unique and different from other people.
the real focus is on myself, my thoughts, my feelings.
japanese: different. I am fundamentally interdependent, from the beginning connected with other people
what I should be doing is paying attention to my relationships with others
trying to keep them in good order, engage other people's sympathy, stay in harmonious interdependence.
i pay attention to your thoughts and feelings about me.
i pay attention to others, their expectations, the standards they're setting.
americans always tell you they're on average better than their peers.
japanese will tell you they're just the same as others, or that their peers are better
stanford students, asked to rate themselves, say 4/1 positive things about themselves. (they might add that they're not as patient as they should be).
japanese are uncomfortable with the question, with paying attention to self.
they say things like: i try to have my own thoughts, but stress harmony with others.
the important thing is to be peaceful, be like other people, maintain harmony.
over 50% of japanese self-descriptions refer to other people.
of course, americans are relational people, but our image, our narrative of ourselves doesn't bring other people into the explanations.
explanations: our frontier history, influence of greek philosophy, the cartesian tradition that says that thinking makes us human,
expressing my thoughts is the essence of what i am.
the us has a huge sprawling legal system that's about protecting individual rights, there are more and more personal rights to be protected all the time.
us advertising: each of us absorbs 300-500 images a day
american magazine ads are about freedom, being unique, choosing, being independent, being different from others.
how is that different from political ideology, hooked up with economic ideology, capitalism, individual, free choice?
it is an ideology. humanity lives according to ideas.
people may think they're unique, but if we all go to the mall buy the same shirt, how will we all be individual?
being unique is our norm, everybody tries to follow that norm.
japanese advertising: freedom, rebellion, being unique and special don't show up in ads much except a few ads directed at younger people.
instead we see in ads scenes of doing your job, doing your duty, doing the proper thing.
instead of one person alone somewhere and out of context, in japan you see people in a work setting, at the office, with other people, co-workers, friends.
it's obvious what they're doing. they're connected, oriented towards each other rather than looking out towards nothing or space.
the emphasis is on being part of the group. it's the way to be a person, a way of being.
jeans commercial: if I as an individual achieve more I deserve to have more.
in america we believe every boy can become president, every girl can become president, if you apply yourself, work hard, push on... americans love that message.
it's a strength, this american idea, but as a social scientist you recognize that it's not the case.
even to maintain the idea of myself as a person, that 'little engine that can', requires a whole host of invisible supportive characters.
in our american way, we keep that interdependence in the background.
we don't recognize the connections that allow us to become the person that we are.
american students tend to do much better when they receive praise. japanese students do better when they get criticism.
for american 9 year olds, the best way to get good performance is to let them choose what game to play, give them choice.
for 9 year old chinese and japanese american students, they get the best performance from a task their mother or a friend chooses for them.
another cultural difference is in the connection between talking and thinking.
we tend to think people who are good thinkers are good talkers
you have an idea and you express it.
in the asian cultural context there's no connection between talking and thinking.
just because you're a good at thinking doesn't mean you're good at talking.
this difference may lie behind the common perception in american universities that asian students are too quiet, too passive.
people coming out of different contexts don't hold the same ideas about the connections between talking and thinking.
I was taking notes as I watched the video, so I thought I'd just turn these notes into today's entry, because I think some very important points are being made here, points that I'd like to be considered in the passionate cultural debates that happen so often in these pages as well as over at Marxy's blog, Neomarxisme. The notes are really for people who don't have the time or the bandwidth to watch the video, but I'd also like a permanent record to refer back to when these issues come up again in the future, as I'm sure they will. (So if you're reading this from the future, hello future!)
Notes taken from a video interview with Hazel Markus
people need other people to become human
to become a person you have to engage in various social meaning systems
that's a social, cultural project
social sciences have been dominated for the last 25 or 30 years by the computer as metaphor for the human:
the idea that most minds are pretty much the same, people are pretty much the same wherever you go
now we're recognizing that people have very different perceptions and orientations.
there's been a shift of emphasis: culture is not what you are but what you do
selfhood: who am i?
american answer: i am an independent autonomous entity made of a set of attributes, preferences, opinions, thoughts, abilities.
the goal of being a person is to try to express these attributes in behaviour, maintain independence, stay unique and different from other people.
the real focus is on myself, my thoughts, my feelings.
japanese: different. I am fundamentally interdependent, from the beginning connected with other people
what I should be doing is paying attention to my relationships with others
trying to keep them in good order, engage other people's sympathy, stay in harmonious interdependence.
i pay attention to your thoughts and feelings about me.
i pay attention to others, their expectations, the standards they're setting.
americans always tell you they're on average better than their peers.
japanese will tell you they're just the same as others, or that their peers are better
stanford students, asked to rate themselves, say 4/1 positive things about themselves. (they might add that they're not as patient as they should be).
japanese are uncomfortable with the question, with paying attention to self.
they say things like: i try to have my own thoughts, but stress harmony with others.
the important thing is to be peaceful, be like other people, maintain harmony.
over 50% of japanese self-descriptions refer to other people.
of course, americans are relational people, but our image, our narrative of ourselves doesn't bring other people into the explanations.
explanations: our frontier history, influence of greek philosophy, the cartesian tradition that says that thinking makes us human,
expressing my thoughts is the essence of what i am.
the us has a huge sprawling legal system that's about protecting individual rights, there are more and more personal rights to be protected all the time.
us advertising: each of us absorbs 300-500 images a day
american magazine ads are about freedom, being unique, choosing, being independent, being different from others.
how is that different from political ideology, hooked up with economic ideology, capitalism, individual, free choice?
it is an ideology. humanity lives according to ideas.
people may think they're unique, but if we all go to the mall buy the same shirt, how will we all be individual?
being unique is our norm, everybody tries to follow that norm.
japanese advertising: freedom, rebellion, being unique and special don't show up in ads much except a few ads directed at younger people.
instead we see in ads scenes of doing your job, doing your duty, doing the proper thing.
instead of one person alone somewhere and out of context, in japan you see people in a work setting, at the office, with other people, co-workers, friends.
it's obvious what they're doing. they're connected, oriented towards each other rather than looking out towards nothing or space.
the emphasis is on being part of the group. it's the way to be a person, a way of being.
jeans commercial: if I as an individual achieve more I deserve to have more.
in america we believe every boy can become president, every girl can become president, if you apply yourself, work hard, push on... americans love that message.
it's a strength, this american idea, but as a social scientist you recognize that it's not the case.
even to maintain the idea of myself as a person, that 'little engine that can', requires a whole host of invisible supportive characters.
in our american way, we keep that interdependence in the background.
we don't recognize the connections that allow us to become the person that we are.
american students tend to do much better when they receive praise. japanese students do better when they get criticism.
for american 9 year olds, the best way to get good performance is to let them choose what game to play, give them choice.
for 9 year old chinese and japanese american students, they get the best performance from a task their mother or a friend chooses for them.
another cultural difference is in the connection between talking and thinking.
we tend to think people who are good thinkers are good talkers
you have an idea and you express it.
in the asian cultural context there's no connection between talking and thinking.
just because you're a good at thinking doesn't mean you're good at talking.
this difference may lie behind the common perception in american universities that asian students are too quiet, too passive.
people coming out of different contexts don't hold the same ideas about the connections between talking and thinking.
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(no subject)
Date: 2004-12-09 04:10 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-12-09 04:30 pm (UTC)This is anecdotal, but when I was staying with a Japanese family in Kyoto, I had a number of discussions with Mr Tanaka about differences between Japan and the West, and specifically Britain, where I'm from. He observed that both groupism and individualism had advantages (well, it sounds platitudinous, but I think it's true), but that there were many Japanese now who misunderstood Western individualism as mere selfishness and adopted that as their own philosophy. I would say that, if his observation is true, that many Westerners have a similar misunderstanding of individualism. But perhaps - I don't know, but just perhaps - such cultural traits as individualism or groupism only become visible enough to compare and contrast when they fall into error, when they lose balance. Would it not be nice to have an individualist-groupism where all members of a group are valued, not used and oppressed? Well, idealistic, perhaps, but I like the idea. Very all for one and one for all, I'm sure.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-12-09 05:16 pm (UTC)I say all this with a sense of affection for Momus though, because it's people's inconsistencies that make them interesting.
Yes
Date: 2004-12-09 05:26 pm (UTC)Marxy
Re: Yes
Date: 2004-12-09 05:36 pm (UTC)Re: Yes
Date: 2004-12-09 05:39 pm (UTC)'The reason why I did hesitate to meet you was I would destroy your imagination. Because I'm such a man you can see everywhere in a street.'
Re: Yes
Date: 2004-12-09 06:05 pm (UTC)These points are not silly, but I think 'autistic' is overstating it. There's an element of compensation and complementation in my choice of model and place of residence. Japan's collectivism is a valuable corrective to the artist's vie de boheme. Mostly, though, I like the politeness and tender-mindedness and safety I find there, since I'm generally polite and tender-minded and law-abiding myself, and I share Japan's reverence for the experimental, the sensual, its aesthetic of everyday life (my Marxist formation has given me a high regard for folk art, folk music, communal crafts). Japan's combination of the medieval and the futuristic is just the coolest thing on the planet, and I don't care if I sound like a tourist when I say that. Sitting on a raked shinkansen opening a basketwork bento box to find rice wrapped in bamboo leaves, sipping a green tea... This to me is the closest thing to 'the ideal society' I've found.
As for Berlin, it's cheap and full of artists. Oh, and the government refused to help Bush invade Iraq. That's already a lot, even leaving out my reverence for Brecht or my interest in the electronic music scene here...
Re: Yes
Date: 2004-12-09 06:13 pm (UTC)Re: Yes
Date: 2004-12-09 11:17 pm (UTC)Re: Yes
Date: 2004-12-09 11:52 pm (UTC)Re: Yes
Date: 2004-12-09 05:51 pm (UTC)Re: Yes
Date: 2004-12-09 06:11 pm (UTC)Re: Yes
Date: 2004-12-09 11:26 pm (UTC)