imomus | This is not the Middle Ages

This is not the Middle Ages

Dutch film director Theo Van Gogh has been shot dead for making a documentary about muslim women who've been forced into marriages and abused in other ways. He received death threats after his provocative film 'Submission' was shown on Dutch TV. The BBC says:

'The AFP news agency says his film Submission triggered an outcry from Dutch Muslims because it featured four abused women in see-through robes showing their breasts with Koranic text painted on their bodies.

'Van Gogh - who was related to the famous Dutch painter - had also been making a film about Pim Fortuyn, the populist right-wing, anti-immigration politician assassinated in May 2002'

My reactions to this came in the following order:

1. I hope this doesn't help the Bush campaign in any way.

2. I married a muslim woman, helping her escape from arranged marriage in Bangladesh, in 1994. But, despite all the drama, I managed to maintain fairly cordial and respectful relations with her family. They were angry, of course, but now they're back in touch with their daughter. Shazna and I were amicably divorced in 1999, and in 2002 released an album together on Siesta under the name Milky, 'Travels With A Donkey'.

Pim Fortuyn, the right wing Dutch politician assassinated by an animal rights campaigner, was a curious beast. An academic, a homosexual and a dandy, he campaigned on an anti-immigrant platform that he justified with liberal-democratic arguments. The tolerant, he said, should not be tolerant of intolerance. Muslims couldn't understand the liberal and permissive ways of the Dutch, and therefore should leave Holland. The Dutch had no reason to adapt to a state of mind they had themselves left behind in the medieval period.

The trouble with Fortuyn's argument is that it's ahistorical. Fundamentalist Islam is a postmodern phenomenon. It's not from the middle ages, but a product of the times we live in, a hardline reaction to the postmodern west. Its ideology is just as much a part of the modern world as the west's is, for Islam changed itself, toughened itself, in a direct dialectical reaction to western values. Postmodern Islam is our creation as much as the creation of the mullahs and the wahabis. We can soften it by softening ourselves, by remaining polite and by continuing dialogue. Without guns, please.

Addendum: it seems Theo Van Gogh was not only deliberately provocative with his imagery, but also with his words. Here's one of his supporters, from an anti-Islamic messageboard:

'Theo van Gogh is the bad boy of the intellectual debate: attacking the muslims - actually calling them goat f***ckers - , telling the lefties they are hypocrites, for example, for demonstrating against the US in the 1980s.... We're not all refined and sophisticated eurowimps. Dutchies and Americans, we're fighting the same fight. And remember: you freed us from the nazis, but we gave you Colonel Parker. Theo's next film will be on Pim Fortuijn, forever in our hearts.'

Not in mine. A third reaction to this event occurs to me:

3. I hope this doesn't set back Turkey's chances of joining the EU.

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Theo Van Gogh has been shot dead!? I just ordered 'Travels With A Donkey' from Amazon.

I'd also add two further thoughts about this. Numbered, because I'm a tidy sort of guy:

4. The inclusion of Turkey into the EU (to be considered in December) would be as significant a step towards world reconciliation as a Kerry victory in today's US election.

5. The next artist of Vincent Van Gogh-type stature to emerge from Holland may well be a muslim second or third generation immigrant.

Momus, my only quibble with you is that every political argument that you make presupposes that socio-political groups will always act as one entity. This "they'll soften if you soften first" argument is frankly embarrassing. Shazna's family's slow "warming" to you and your ways may be one example of a kind of trickle-down empathy affecting an unlikely source, but you can't apply that in a blanket statement about every Republican and Islamic Fundamentalist. Granted, this assassination shouldn't be evidence that things will never change and that a culture war is inevitable, it's just that I usually expect more complex arguments from you. You're lapsing into binaries here.

1) I don't think there will be time for this to happen. It takes a few days for complicated reactions like that to formulate.

3) It needn't do. The arguments holding Turkey back remain economic rather than ethnic/religious. I'm far more worried about a failed Turkish EU adventure sinking her secular state, than a blocked EU entrance.

I like what you wrote. We need more words like that to stop this becoming a confrontation and a crisis.

A very unfortunate turn of events. Seems that he was the great-grandson of Vincent Van Gogh's brother Theo. This is likely to hit hard with nationalist sentiments. I hope that this is soon shown to be the action of a crazed individual with no links to some Jihad organization or another.

On my first trip to Holland, many years ago, I was robbed at gun point by two North African men. The police I spoke with showed no trace of racism. It would be unfortunate to see this quality of Dutch society change. Fortuyn's argument hold a certain amount of logic skewed as it may be, and certainly his solution of asking foreigners to leave is outlandish. Perhaps programs encouraging more cultural dialogue between recent immigrants and natives would help? It's indeed troubling that the assassin holds dual Dutch-Moroccan citizenship, which means he has be in the country for some time.

poor Theo. I remember hearing about the death threats he'd been receiving earlier-on but figured they'd be as ineffectual as those symbolic Rushdie-jihads of yesteryear.

Regardless, was both shocking & fascinating to hear a piece about it during an hourly news update -- on Jazz.FM, of all places -- despite some other apparently-important event capturing the world's attention today.

wow!!that is totally messed up!!
that is a cute album cover by the way.

What abou the human rights violations Turkey has? And the constant denial of the Armenian genocide? You think good thing for Turkey to go to EU to change this or you are overlooking?

Apparently the script for that movie was written by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somali woman who is a Dutch MP--an "ex-Muslim", as she describes herself, and a darling of the Dutch right wing. So this thing is even more twisty and postmodern than it seems.

Also, have you ever noticed how in sci-fi movies like star wars, the good guys' lasers are always blue, and the evil empire's lasers are always red? That has to have some mythical significance, right? I mean, Joseph Campbell was practically a consultant for Lucasfilm at the time. Blue states and red states can't be a coincidence.

B

This is unrelated, but interesting. Nick, remember when you got pissed off at NASA for trying to make Mars cute, comfortable, and familiar? They tried to do the same thing with Titan at first--calling the large continent "Halloween Cat", for example. It looks like it just got too weird, though. A victory for Momus:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/02/science/space/02tita.html?8hpib

B

Horrible. Like many Americans my idea of Holland is tulips and tolerance, Anne Frank and art. I'm sorry to have it altered in such an ugly way.

unfortunately the tides have changed.

this country is all about hate now. I remember the times when it wasnt. It changed the last 5 years.

It seems like we are getting back to 1938.
The hates feeds the politics. Its stirring.

Turkey aren't Arab country. The difference between state of Pakistan, Iran and Turkey in comparison with state of most advanced Arab countries is something to consider.

When Japan was forced to dialog with the hostile West it took her less than half century to reform completely. I do not think that what happens is a West-produced problem.

We can soften it by softening ourselves, by remaining polite and by continuing dialogue. Without guns, please.

Of course--we can make our buildings, trains and planes out of styrofoam, for instance.

Why, we can even start subjugating women again, so as not to cause undue frictions with sharia law. Surely the islamofascists who Killed Van Gogh are as reasonable as we assume, yes? We're all cosmopolitans now, right? I mean, why on Earth would they see such concessions as an emboldening sign of weakness? Besides, liberal democracies are so modernist, anyway.

1098 forever,
W

I would have thought remaining polite and not using guns would be your sort of thing, Whimsy. Perhaps you just feel sympathy with Fortuyn's point of view because I called him a 'dandy'?

Did you read the full transcript of Bin Laden's tape, just released? He talked about wanting to bankrupt the US (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/01/binladen.tape/) by goading it into attack the same way the USSR was undermined by goading in Afghanistan. Why would Bin Laden reveal this strategy? Because the US, at least when controlled by Republicans, just can't help lowering its head like an enraged bull and charging right into whatever hedge of thorns lies in its path.

Right after 9/11 happened, I posted this (http://www.imomus.com/dailyphoto151001.html) on my website. A chess strategy book open at a page about zugzwang, the compulsion to play and lose. Bush apparently does not know about this chess strategy. But you can be sure Bin Laden does. Perhaps, from tomorrow, in his ample spare time, Bush will actually learn chess. But I doubt it.

Perhaps you just feel sympathy with Fortuyn's point of view because I called him a 'dandy'?

Ha ha. Oh, do lower that eyebrow, mister man!

I'm not advocating a 'bull in the china shop' approach to the problem--naturally, that merely serves Al Queda's ends, breeding hysteria on all sides. But having a reputation for vulnerability, 'decadence' and a propensity for employing half-measures in response to the prior 1993 World Trade Center attack didn't exactly work like a charm prior to 9/11. Was it goading, a bid to heighten Bin Laden's international stature? Of course, but what preemptive strike on a civilian population isn't a calculated provocation? Should Germany simply turn the other cheek if a radioactive 'dirty bomb' is detonated in Berlin? Such a strategy would open the floodgates to more attacks as surely as taking excessively draconian measures would. Dialogue is a fine thing, but utter passivity is folly, if not suicidal. Political hate groups like Nazis or the KKK might be kept in their marginal place in society by not treating them seriously, but it doesn't seem to work as well when religion is involved.

While I normally agree that politeness and dialogue should be employed as much as is humanly possible, I feel no duty to tolerate intolerance to the point of my own detriment, mainly because those like ourselves (and the unfortunate Mr. Van Gogh) soon become prime targets when such nonsense is encouraged. We should offer no quarter to violent fundamentalists who wish to bring low all that we cherish--be they Christian, Islamic or otherwise.

The Turkish family in my neighborhood had a lovely garden this year, and they always receive as much politeness, generosity (and plum tomatoes) as I am able to muster. I just hope that we can keep the international insanity to a minimum so their extended family 'back home' can look forward to a bright future. How we do this specifically, I cannot say--but I agree that it must be a concerted effort.

It felt good to press those hallowed levers today,
W

I hope they opened a concealed piranha tank beneath the right man!

Hah hah. Well, it wasn't the entire school of piranha--just their elected representative and his coterie of lawyers and campaign donors.

If you look at the results from NJ, you'll see that we did our bit.

i downloaded a song by a band called milky a copule months ago
i'm not sure if you or not, the song is "just the way you are"
it's really good and it was released in 2002 so maybe it was this??

There was a much more poppy Milky in the UK at that time, it's probably them. We were 'the weird Milky'. Or, as I prefer to say, 'the weird Milky you can whistle'.

Would anyone mind if I paraded through here for a moment, wearing my sandwich board with "Travels with a Donkey" on one side and "Summerisle" on the other, beating a big bass drum? I think they're two of the best and most interesting CDs of the past couple years, and I think I'd think that even if I didn't like Momus. For a long time I've been meaning to write some sort of encomium praising and parsing their riches, while encouraging Momus to continue playing the lady's man on future such collaborations. (Alas, I'm no critic and the rest of the world doesn't seem to want to notice.)

This summer when I traveled halfway across America (by car! sorry) my carmate got sick of me whistling along with "Travels," but I think it's perfect summertime traveling music, and I'll forever associate it with the Endless Mountains of Pennsylvania and the verdant valleys of Ohio. Likewise, "Summerisle" and the Hudson Valley, perfect for dawnrise driving and dusktide dawdling. Shazna, Anne, I love you, and thanks for the memories.

So, Cakewalks, take a chance--or I'll give you double your money back. This Milky is a good deal creamier than that other--and it's not pasteurized, so you get all the healthy bacteria!

Now, back to the tension of the day...

Shazna, Anne, I love you, and thanks for the memories.

Thanks for the encomium, I know Shazna's keeping an eye on this thread, and she'll appreciate your love!

yes, the milky album is great!

erik
the netherlands

"Fundamentalist Islam is a postmodern phenomenon. It's not from the middle ages, but a product of the times we live in, a hardline reaction to the postmodern west. Its ideology is just as much a part of the modern world as the west's is, for Islam changed itself, toughened itself, in a direct dialectical reaction to western values. Postmodern Islam is our creation as much as the creation of the mullahs and the wahabis. We can soften it by softening ourselves, by remaining polite and by continuing dialogue. Without guns, please."

I would say it has its roots more in the collapse of the ottoman empire after ww1 and the european expansion that followed. Granted this came to a head in post-modern times with the economic problems associated with this model (ie. after the failings of Nasser evolving into fundamentalism). But as you said, this is a dialectical response. But as long as these models in some form or another stay in place, i am doubtful that "softening ourselves" is going to synthesize anything practical.

I've been seeing the term Transmodernism bandied about of late: http://www.islamonline.net/english/Contemporary/2002/05/Article20.shtml

One day after the Beslan-tragedy happened I talked to an arabic newpaperseller. He was almost crying, claiming that this cannot be anyones will, that this has nothing to do with religious believe, that there can’t be any paradise for killers like that. I’d wish more people would stand up, show up in the media, holding up their precious Koran and say, that terror has nothing to do with what the Islamic believe is based on. Only when their own people start to protest against those methods, the fuzzy frontiers will get clearer, so that all sides can start to at least TALK about the problem.
I remember a CNN discussion, where an (exil?)Iraqi claimed, that his people don’t want democracy, because democracy comes from the USA! I was so surprised to hear that and wondered, to what extend attitude has something to do with low levels of education.
Dear America, dear world, all the best from little me. anna

I haven't seen the film but this demonstrates the potency of visual poetic and metaphor as well as group smear. Got me wondering that the connection between film and fundamentalism ("Soldiers Of God" beheading compendiums being 70 cent best sellers at Baghdad's Thieves Market) is perception and of growing importance. Fundamentalists work for both sides - they are neither stupid enough not to note the feeling they create to oppose them, nor smart enough to have a valuable endgame. They are the ultra-middleground, the stirrers. When those who push us toward an anti-pluralist world are 'in front' of us (fascist dictatorships) we wish them removed, when they are 'amongst' us (radical muslim groups at street level) we can consider implications and are possibly right to but should procede in the same way, otherwise they will be front of us. No-one prevents muslim groups making comparible films about the corruption in western values (and does either a value system or a religion cause wife battery or are they simultaneously built on psycho-symptoms, women=territory etc?) but nor would we see them. The beheadings were done for the US (and Pakistan - a call for bonding) but mainly for the medium, the net, the chance to speak, and the chance to both claim and subvert that territory. ("Look, ma, we're THIS fundamental.") If the documentary refused to look at the fundamentals of fundamentalism, it joined its ranks, worked for both sides, and stirr

I hope you didn't get decapitated by extremists half way through that sentence!

Nice picture - do you remember the Banana Splits? (One banana, two banana, three banana, four...)

I'll just check. Nope, it's still there.

after hearing the news I first thoght about the assisanisation of pier paolo pasolini, the itlaian controversial filmmaker murdered in the 70s. it has always been applied that it also had political motives.

erik
rotterdam
the netherlands

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salo van gogh