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Matriarchy, says Wikipedia, is "a gynocentric form of society, in which the leading role is with the female and especially with the mothers of a community". However, "many modern anthropologists and sociologists assert that there are no known examples of human matriarchies from any point in history". Failing to find matriarchal societies, some have switched their search to "matrifocal" societies; those which focus on women, but in which women don't dominate. Examples of this are said to be the Nairs of Kerala, the matrilineal Minangkabau of West Sumatra, the Mosuo people of Lake Lugu in China, and a few others. They're all rather minor and marginal cultures. The only major culture the article suggests might, once, have been matriarchal is... Japan.

That's right, Japan. A society often stereotyped by Westerners as having a "submissive" female population may well have been, once, closer to matriarchy than any of our Western societies ever have been. Citing his book "Gender in World History" (Routledge, 2000), the article says: "Peter N. Stearns and other historians have speculated as to whether or not agricultural Japan was a matriarchy prior to contact with patriarchal China". So let's turn to what Stearns says on the subject in The Spread of Chinese Civilization to Japan.

"Early visitors from the mainland noted the rigid social distinctions, including different sorts of tattoos and other body markings, that separated the warrior elite from the mass of the people. They also remarked on the strong position women enjoyed in early Japanese culture, in marked contrast to their clear subordination in China. Early Japanese households appear to have been matriarchal, that is, dominated by childbearing women. Women also played key roles as shamans - who were central to Japanese religious ceremonies and worship - as leaders of some of the clans, and later as empresses. The importance of women in early Japanese culture is also indicated by their legends regarding the creation of the world. In these tales the sun goddess, Amaterasu, played a central role, and her worship became the central element in the Shinto religion developed by the island peoples."

It was Chinese influence, says Stearns, which began to erode the power of women in Japan:

"The introduction into Japan of the ideal of the patriarchal and patrilineal family, which had long been dominant in China, presented a major challenge to traditional Japanese approaches to gender roles and relationships. For some centuries, the position of women within the family remained strong, and the ideal of wives and lovers who were accomplished in literature and the arts was preserved by the courtly elites at the imperial capitals of Nara and Heian. But the adoption of Chinese law codes eroded first the control that Japanese women were able to exercise with regard to their own children, and eventually their overall status relative to males."

[Error: unknown template video]

What interests me is whether the dominance of women isn't still encoded, in perhaps oblique and unexpected ways, in Japanese society today. Something that important would surely endure, at least symbolically, right? Let's look at how Stearns establishes female status in early Japan. Women control households, act as shamen, become empresses, and a female deity is venerated in Shinto as the creator of the world. Fast forward: women still control the household finances in Japan; the typical salaryman hands his earnings over to his wife, who decides how the money will be spent. There are still traces of the Japanese woman-shaman; check the OOIOO video above for one example. There was recently a debate -- admittedly because of a fertility crisis -- on whether the tradition of Japanese empresses should be restored; public opinion was largely in favour. As for Amaterasu, she isn't invoked much in Japan these days, but Shinto continues to be a strong presence in festivals and customs across the land.

Anecdotal evidence for the importance of women in Japan abounds. We looked last year at the Mazakon mother complex cult, the tendency of Japanese men to seek powerful and reassuring mother figures. Big breasts and older women are very popular. So, of course, are tiny-breasted Lolitas, but the two complexes interlock; Japanese men notoriously slow down sex with their wives when their children are born. At that point their wives become "Mother" (that's literally what they call them) and sexual action is often taken to masturbation, the world of commercial sex, and schoolgirl fantasies. But even -- especially -- Lolita can be a powerful figure. If Takashi Murakami is right to see post-war Japan as an infantilized culture, who better than an infant to represent power? Especially a spoiled infant who's able to control others with her pre-sexual charisma? It would, after all, be a misunderstanding of matriarchy to think that women could only be powerful by acting as men act. Domination by cuteness, or by maternal solicitude, are unapologetically female ways to dominate.

Stearns presents sobering evidence that successful civilizations actually increase patriarchy, and increase the inequality between men and women over time. This has been the effect, for instance, of Islam and Arabic gender practices on India and sub-Saharan Africa, the effect of foot-binding China on neighbours like Japan and Mongolia, and the effect of European colonial influence on the Americas, India, Africa and Pacific Oceania. Only very recently has the West come to pride itself, rather hypocritically, on being a civilization "good for women". Women's rights have been used as a stick to beat the West's enemies (the Taliban) with; when rich allies like Saudi Arabia oppress women, though, the West passes in silence. What we have to admit, though, is that we're currently a very militarized civilization, very masculine, and more so this decade than last. If the 90s were about the globalization of consumer culture, the 00s have seen a re-militarization of the West.

Something I've often asked myself is: "Does consumer society make us all more feminine? Does it tilt power in the direction of women?" The immediate answer is that it tilts power in the direction of those who have money, and women are still earning less than men. But I believe certain forms of consumer culture do "feminize" the societies they dominate. Japan's constitution has prevented it from militarizing, and its consumer culture has a markedly feminine feel to me; female consumers are more likely to determine the shapes of cars and phones in Japan than male consumers these days. Certainly the right wing government wants to revive militarism, but the actual society continues to be considerably more female-friendly (its safety, its consumer character) than any other I know.

Other anecdotal evidence that occurs to me, somewhat scattershot:

* Japanese porn dedicates more screentime to clitoral stimulation than any other nation's.

* Japanese women, to those of us who've been in relationships with both, are absolutely not more "submissive" than Western women. Compare a figure like Yoko Ono to, say, Linda Eastman. Is there any doubt which of them was more powerful and more dominant over their famous partners?

* When a Japanese woman and a Western man argue, different cultural values come into play. Hisae often tells me: "You're too macho, you act like a prince, you ought to learn to cook." My Western girlfriends would never tell me "You're too macho." They'd say "You're too wimpy." Hisae's idea of a boyfriend -- mediated by the Japanese culture she grew up in -- is someone less masculine, more humble, and more inclined to help around the house than I've been brought up to be. When I see Japanese couples together, I'm always amazed at how meek and submissive the men are. And now, when I see Western couples, I often find the men amazingly patronizing to their partners. They seem not to notice, either.

I'm not saying Japanese culture today is matriarchal. It clearly isn't, and there are a thousand ways we could demonstrate male dominance. But I do think there are still clear traces in Japanese culture of a time when it might have got a lot closer to that kind of social organisation than our Western cultures ever have. And I think it's worrying that it appears to be insularity which preserves matriarchy, and globalization which destroys it. Because what China was to fifth century Japan, we in the West are to isolated cultures today. We're the "successful" ones with the "right" -- and more male -- way of doing things. The silver lining in the cloud, though, is that if we can check our militarism and let consumerism (as equitable and ethical a version as possible) have the upper hand, we might still see major matriarchal societies in the future.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-08 12:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] electricwitch.livejournal.com
"My Western girlfriends would never tell me "You're too macho.""

I would. Though then again I wouldn´t be your girlfriend.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-08 12:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
I hope that's not going to be your only contribution to this vast topic, [livejournal.com profile] electricwitch. Are you working for the matriarchy of the future (by other means than by not dating me, I mean)?

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Date: 2007-09-08 12:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] qscrisp.livejournal.com
Interesting post, but there is, necessarily, a huge amount of interpretation involved in this kind of thing. For instance, I can think of one example off the top of my head of Burroughs referring to Britain as a matriarchy (which for him was a bad thing), an idea that seemed to have a good deal to do with the idea of a 'nanny state'. The Queen, of course, was the symbolic head of this matriarchy. It hardly needs saying that many people would vigorously contest such an interpretation, and I think the same is true here. The problem is that the subject is so nebulous.

I think the most interesting idea here for me is that the matriarchal exists more strongly in the insular or peripheral areas of the world, rather in centres of 'civilisation'. I suppose this interests me because it agrees with my own view that the false 'universals' of monotheism and science, which are the basis of imperialism, are basically male.

I also agree, as an aside, that Western men are often incredibly patronising to their partners. I look on astounded sometimes at the exchanges that take place, the kind of things that supposedly educated, liberal men will say to their girlfriends and wives (and I don't mean ribbing them or anything like that).

(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-08 12:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] electricwitch.livejournal.com
"I look on astounded sometimes at the exchanges that take place, the kind of things that supposedly educated, liberal men will say to their girlfriends and wives (and I don't mean ribbing them or anything like that)."

God, I know. It´s awful to see your friends throw themselves away on bastards who don´t appreciate them or even abuse them and you can´t say anything.

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Date: 2007-09-08 12:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] qscrisp.livejournal.com
By the way, do you know about Himiko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himiko)?

(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-08 12:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
Fascinating, a sort of more-powerful Japanese version of the Celtic Boudica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica). The Chinese were pretty patronising, telling her to show "filial loyalty" and stay devoted and obedient to them!

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Date: 2007-09-08 12:57 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
"we're currently a very militarized civilization, very masculine, and more so this decade than last. "

Whereas Japan, with the fifth largest military expenditure in the world and the twentieth largest army in terms of active troop numbers, is so very feminine?

- K

(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-08 01:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
First, I'm not saying today's Japan is "so very feminine". I'm saying it once was, and traces may remain today.

Second, in terms of percentage of GDP that goes on military spending (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China), Japan ranks rather low for a major world power. Only 1% of GDP is spent on the military. The US spends 3.7%, the UK 2.7%. Japan's sex industry is, by some estimates, bigger than its military sector.

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Date: 2007-09-08 01:02 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Does power defeminate?

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Date: 2007-09-08 01:42 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
She's right, you should learn to cook and do more housework, a pompous man presumes the right to write self-important posts about big 'serious' 'issues'. You're so macho.

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greetings from nw6...still

Date: 2007-09-08 02:07 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Nick has cooked for me and I've survived - just. I think he was doing this particular kitchen turn to make sure nobody in his life asked him to cook ever again. We do keep trying, though. We just need to find something he'd like to cook which isn't available in a restaurant for under a tenner, is easily done and takes less time than it would to get to you in a cafe.

He is much better at tidying.

Re: greetings from nw6...still

Date: 2007-09-08 02:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
Hello Suzy!

I've been a little harsh on myself in this entry, I think, and some are taking advantage, portraying me as blogging pompously about gender while being served hand and foot by Hisae. In fact, I wrote it while she slept. I've washed my share of dishes in the last 24 hours, and gone to the supermarket, and made the tea, and so on. Cleaning up the rabbit's litter tray is still an ongoing issue, though.

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Re: greetings from nw6...still

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(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-08 02:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
By the way, who is "the American OOIOO"? I guess you could say the British version were The Slits. What's the nearest American band, in terms of shamanism, nature-worship, and so on?

[Error: unknown template video]

(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-08 02:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
I guess it's her (http://home.comcast.net/~cmk23/jn.jpg), isn't it?

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Tender UK

Date: 2007-09-08 02:48 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Shared housework and cooking is pretty much the norm these days - even here in brutish Britain. Men into 'old-fashioned' domestic set-ups rarely bring home old-fashioned salaries. A quiet revolution. Little Jamie Olivers wondering why men splashed pungent alcohol onto their jaws and are testing moisturising creams. I used to work in a department where the women all had tattoos and talked football and the men swapped couscous recipes. It wasn't such a shock. The Aussie temp might wonder if we're gay, but many other people enjoy Britain because masculinity and femininity are, in effect, both a joke here, finally separate from things like 'assertive' or 'tender'.

Re: Tender UK

Date: 2007-09-08 03:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
I think there's a danger, though, in trying to separate gender from identity, saying they have nothing to do with each other. Whether it's Jamie Oliver on TV or people staging a dinner party at home, it's pure ideology, and it may be a more subtle form of oppression, a taboo on difference, a restriction on identity.

It's very unlikely that something as strong as gender's effect on identity would just suddenly slip away overnight, become neutral and insignificant, isn't it? And why should it even be desireable? After all that women had been through, would it suddenly be meaningless to be a woman?

And what if, instead of gender becoming neutral, everybody in the UK had simply become a "lad" (the same way you now call everyone "guys")? In other words, what if there was an "end of gender" because one gender had "won" -- rather as there was said to be, in the 90s, an "end of history" because of a New World Order dominated by a sole superpower?

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(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-08 03:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cerulicante.livejournal.com
I think there has always been tension between the male and female roles in society and that it will always continue, but that women now are sort of confused on what exactly they should be doing. In the west, we had 35 years of WOMEN GOOD MEN BAD WOMEN PEACEFUL MEN RAPIST and it's done some serious social damage to not only the dating dynamic, but it's also pressuring women to adapt to the expectation that they can raise families and still have an income production of some sort. Women now can see how rough their husbands have it when they work all day and come home exhausted, but then the kids need care, as well.

I think modern women are getting a taste of why men die earlier and more often and that it's good for them to have some sympathy for it. Conversely, men are finding out how much they really need women to support them to live happy lives and so they need to be more sympathetic to women and their individual needs and stresses. Adversity can destroy marriages, but it can also refine them by allowing each partner to see how rough the other person has it and then try harder to support them.


As to matriarchal or patriarchal, this will become more irrelevant in the future, I think. As women filter into combat positions and men take time off to raise their kids, I can see roles becoming more a matter of individual choice than any sort of cultural norm. A woman might be in charge of the finances or the man might. I think we are doing well in removing old stereotypes and allowing more personal choice.


Of course, Japan is so messed up from the top down that no one can predict what will happen. I won't even try.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-09 01:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lord-whimsy.livejournal.com
http://denisdutton.com/baumeister.htm

Wonderful.

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(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-08 03:45 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
"There was recently a debate -- admittedly because of a fertility crisis -- on whether the tradition of Japanese empresses should be restored; public opinion was largely in favour."

The debate wasn't so much whether to restore a tradition of empresses as whether to create a precedent and permit heirs to come from the female line. We have no DNA tests to be sure but all empresses apparently came from the male line and were succeeded by an heir also from the male line rather than her own children. It was easier to find one somewhere eventually because the imperial family was so large. The Occupation removed imperial status from many of these branches and the debate about Kiko was that if she was allowed to become empress then her children would be heirs which would break the male lineage for the first time. The birth of Hisahito has killed this debate stone dead for now.

I've always thought that an empress rather than an emperor might be helpful for Japan in Asia where postwar memories, rightly or wrongly, see the country as militaristic and perhaps even misogynistic.

Mulboyne

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Date: 2007-09-08 05:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
Thanks for clarifying, Mulboyne. By the way, are you the same person as M-Bone?

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Two Japans

Date: 2007-09-08 04:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] calligraphy kid (from livejournal.com)
Women in Japan's ruling class could once occupy leadership positions and, if it suited them to do so, have more than one husband on the go. However, successive waves of Confucianism followed by militarism put men firmly in charge from around the 10th Century onwards where they have remained steadfastly ever since. The postwar Constitution abolished the patriarchal family system, giving women equal rights for the first time ever in marriage (but not in employment: the 'two-track' system of promotion in Japanese workplaces is a form of institutionalised gender discrimination. More importantly, Japanese men NEVER serve tea in the workplace, not even the effete types you've been following around.)

The trend over the last half-century has been very much one of women and men forming two distinct tribes from middle school onwards, each with its own language, shops and media so that they hardly learn how to interact. The reason you think Japan is a feminised society is that you seem to be confusing the Japan you can see - stocked full of female-friendly products - with the whole of Japan. The men's half is more hidden and their spending finds less visible outlets such as the member's club, the stock market and the brothel.

That Japanese women can thrive, never mind survive, in such an all-encompassingly male-dominated public life is testament to their very special qualities. You mention rightly that Western men are quick to stereotype Japanese women as submissive, but the real skill by which they get ahead is by allowing a man to keep his masculine prerogative while pulling his strings in other, subtler ways.

It all comes down to the concept of face which a lot of Westerners can't comprehend - hence the behaviour of Japanese women makes them 'submissive' or, even worse, this sophisticated play on men's sense of worth is interpreted literally with all the ego-expanding danger that entails:

http://tokyology.wordpress.com/2007/09/03/your-cock-is-huge/

Re: Two Japans

Date: 2007-09-08 05:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cerulicante.livejournal.com
When I was learning Japanese in college, there was never a shortage of cute or sexy Japanese girls willing to teach us their language. The guys were shyer and never talked much. The teachers were always female. As a result, most students of Japanese speak very effeminately and choose feminine sentence patterns when they communicate. At the basic level, it's fine, since any attempt is a good attempt and Japanese respond well to this effort. However, once one manages some decent fluency, men and women will respond negatively (yet imperceptibly) to effeminately-speaking men, I've found. A lot of Japanese women will often say to their friends that "the white boy is cute, but his Japanese is so...girly!"

Having spent time working with Japanese men and teaching boys, I've managed to make my Japanese much more masculine. I've found that I get more positive attention and responses from women here when I speak like a man and not a woman. Women seem to respect my ideas and decisions when I assert myself as a man and they find it more comfortable to communicate with me. Other men feel more open and are friendlier to me, which is why I think the guys in college never wanted to hang out with me and the other male students.

Maybe it has nothing to do with the massively important issue of Momus becoming a cuddlebitch to Amaterasu, but it's interesting to me as a student of language.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-08 05:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sarmoung.livejournal.com
I'm not too convinced by Stearn's argument here, which seems rather cursory and certainly unquestioning of the reliability or intentions of the accounts of these early visitors. It also suggests a rather monolithic or homogenous aspect to both Chinese and Japanese culture at the time, when they were anything but.

I also think he's rather overlooking the profoundly matriarchal aspects to Korean culture of this early period. Was Japan perhaps not in part feminised (even Japanised!) via the peninsula?

I can't say I've read it, but I think this collection of essays (http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN9780520231382) should give a much richer account of the interplay between these various cultures and women's roles within them.

Stability and extremes

Date: 2007-09-08 05:26 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Men tend towards the extremes in most psychological traits (for instance, there are more very intelligent and very stupid men, than women). If you have these volatile extremists in leadership positions, the country tends to be chaotic, but dynamic. With more common-sensical women in leadership, the country is more balanced, and creativity is assured. As examples, the Elizabethan and Victorian eras were more creative than male-led eras.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-08 06:28 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
http://matriarchy.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=149&Itemid=83

yer killin' me here

Date: 2007-09-08 07:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lupoleboucher.livejournal.com
If Japan was ever a matriarchy, I'm the Duke of Cumberland.

I suspect you're projecting the idiosyncrasies of your relationship on an entire culture. The Japanese men I know will do housework or cook when hell freezes over. Maybe you should ask some if they think it is normal for men to do housework. Women from other cultures find western men remarkable because they'd even consider doing something like this. Also, because we fall for nonsense that men from their culture are immune to, like crying. As for your porn collection: only the japanese could come up with Bukake, tentacle rape scenes and eel porn. If I learned about sex from Japanese porn, I'd never have noticed that women have a clitoris at all, though I'd know a lot about frosting a woman's face with 30 of my buddies, or how to stick a sea creature up her hoo-ha.

Re: yer killin' me here

Date: 2007-09-08 07:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
Do you seriously think this

Image

is not about maximal clitoral stimulation?

Re: yer killin' me here

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Re: yer killin' me here

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(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-08 10:18 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I don't know what it means, but while I was reading this D.Bowie's "Golden Years" came on the easy listening station.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-09 01:00 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
"My Western girlfriends would never tell me "You're too macho.""

I have been reading click opera for few years now off and on [and I am (obviously) not your girlfriend]... but I get a very macho feel from you.

-Urban Memo (http://urbanmemo.blogspot.com)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-09 01:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
Well, maybe you're right. Just because I walk around in an apron (http://www.flickr.com/photos/imomus/1335963247/), with a hairpin in my hair, it doesn't mean I'm not macho. In fact, that might be the most macho thing a man can wear. It's like saying "Got a problem with this? Then fuck you!"

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] bonsai-human.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-09-09 04:14 am (UTC) - Expand

hmm

Date: 2007-09-09 05:29 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
but in your last post you were admiring the confucian influence for the critical thought thingie and in this one you are hatin on them for killing the matriarchy
no, i dont wanna be the kind of party-pooper that bullies people for having thoughts that might not get along so well, i just wanted to point that out.
btw we forgot to tell hisae the other day when we ran into you that my gf loves the earrings!she wears it all the time (she lost one but she still wears it by itself)Lets get together for dinner sometime, you and i cook!
M

(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-09 05:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] calligraphy kid (from livejournal.com)
The official version of history has it that Japanese tokkotai pilots on WWII suicide missions would shout for the glory of the Emperor before flying their planes into US ships (in theory anyway - they usually missed or were shot down.) But ask any Japanese person old enough to remember those times and they will tell you that what the pilots almost certainly shouted was "OKAAAA-SAN!" ("Mother!")

So what extent is or was Japan a matriarchy? From a Western perspective, a matriarchy seems impossible without females achieving, at the very least, equality first. Hence there are countless ways we can demonstrate that Japan is not a matriarchy and hasn't been for over a Millennium. But from an Asian perspective, harmony takes precedence over equality. Seen like this, a matriarchy in which women stomped around exacting power over men would be unthinkable due to the breach of harmony. Instead, there has to be a harmonic state in which women are the bastion and foundation of the private, family sphere while men get to lord it over all the stuff that goes on in public. This duality doesn't really fit the Western definition of matriarchy and can't really be judged by it. As for matrifocal, the schism between public and private is too great to talk about society as a whole being matrifocal, although I'll concede that Japanese department stores probably are, while boardrooms most definitely aren't.

That brings me to the example of the Japanese husband handing over all of his earnings to his wife. This has always been misinterpreted to signify some kind of female empowerment. The reality is that once a Japanese woman marries, her duty to the family defines her so completely that it would be inconceivable of her to think of the money as her own. It's no more than delegated shopping. I'm sure most Japanese men would willingly forgo the power to choose the right brand of okonomiyaki sauce as long as they can keep enough 10,000 yen bills in their wallets for the hostess bar come Friday.

The picture you paint of Japanese women expecting their men to be submissive and helpful around the house is interesting: in all the Japanese homes I've visited, the only reason the men would ever even rise from the table is to fetch themselves another beer from the fridge - and then only if the women were too busy preparing a hundred and one dishes to fetch it for them. Most Western men I know would be embarrassed to be on the receiving end of this kind of servitude. Then again, this male dependency on women in the home can itself be twisted around as evidence of a private-sphere matriarchy so I guess that leaves us still groping for conclusions. Good post though.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-09 07:31 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Isn't "harmony" itself a Chinese cultural influence? How can we prove that pre-Sinified Japanese culture had an obsession with maintaining "harmony"? When we say that "Asia respects harmony," we are speaking of a wide Chinese intellectual influence on the whole continent, right?

(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-09 05:59 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Hmmm...well there's this band I saw last year called First Nation. They have a myspace (myspace.com/firstnationlove)...but here's a video I found. There might be more but with their name it makes it hard to find them...



--anonymouse

(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-09 06:05 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
sorry, meant that as a reply to your "american ooioo" post...

(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-09 06:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] akabe.livejournal.com
Two more minor things.

someone, can't remember who, poignantly said that the masochist is the only true radical - their ability to subvert being virtually unlimited. now i'm not simply suggesting japanese women are masochistic (though interestingly yoko ono in her most feminist phase identifies masochism as one of the main negative things to be combated) but there certainly is a similar dynamic at work.

the 'japanese male' (on the visible level at least) as a cultural entity is something almost entirely created by the japanese female - from the family on. while this surely opens up an endless chicken and egg scenario it also shows the seat of power to be more fluid.

i'm also curious what momus personally thought of that documentary on okasa hosts. Marxy, for example, sees the whole thing as an insidious way for the male sex-moguls to recover their loss in paid wages, failing however to consider the fact that say, drinking establishment for males or, indeed , capitalism itself operates in exactly the same way.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-09 07:25 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
We keep getting into an argument about the make-up of customers at host clubs, and it seems hard to draw any sort of conclusion for the whole of Japanese society and the ancient history of gender relations if it's a clear MAJORITY hostesses and prostitutes that visit them. Hosts have become more mainstream, I admit, but I think it's at least worth looking at how much this media host boom "manufactured needs" for hosts more than reported on it as pure journalism.

Drinking establishments do take the money of men, but they weren't specifically created to take the money from men working in the bar industry. They have a longer tradition, like prostitution and hostess in Japan. I think my point was that the sex/semi-sex industry created a new service in order to, at best, provide its own employees (at a high price) something they weren't getting because they are in the industry, or at worst, try to their money back.

Were there host clubs in Yoshiwara? Never heard as such. That's still 1,000 years after "matriarchal Japan," but nothing changes much in a millennium, right? If you want to get a sense of the United States, check out Jutland customs from the 5th century CE.

Marxy

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] akabe.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-09-09 07:44 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2007-09-09 10:21 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-09-09 10:57 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-09 10:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] electricwitch.livejournal.com
LOLOLOLOL DOGPILE.

srsly momus you are such a sadist. I´m never listening to anything you say ever again. And will only comment with macros from now on, because if I get one more fucking tl;dr comment in my inbox I think I´ll snap.

Confused

Date: 2007-09-09 10:47 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I am kind of confused about what is going on here.

I think I am right to say you'd prefer a matriarchal society to a patriarchal one. I am not sure why striving for gender equality at a legal and social level means absolute gender dissolution, but I, at least, would prefer a society that is neutral if not most minimally patriarchal, rather than matriarchal. Are our options really "off" and "on"?

So, Japan - in an era without any of its major intellectual fundamentals for social organization in place - may have been matriarchal. You admit now that Japan is pretty much patriarchal and that all the mainland Asian thought that reformed Japanese society pretty much wiped out the legacy of this "original state." So what are we even talking about? What is at stake? Is Japan more preferable of a society because of this "original matriarchal state" despite very very few palpable legacies? Wouldn't a society that is becoming less and less patriarchal over time, despite an "original patriarchal state," be more appealing?

All of your examples of "matriarchy" in Japan are modern in origin. There are much more immediate causes. And they are too minor to even fit into the larger concept. "Matriarchy" means women holding power in a MAXIMAL rather than minimal way. (Is there a society on Earth in which women do not wield some manner of power???)

Re: clitoral stimulation - I find it odd that in non-Japanese patriarchal societies like the U.S., women in porn videos are actually allowed to show pleasure during the sexual act. Japanese women may secretly enjoy whatever they are enduring but I don't see much matriarchy in the demand for them to hide it. In terms of big boobs, breast lust in Japan is post-war, and patriarchal societies also like big boobs. What's unique here?

Although the theory itself is interesting (and plausible), I am not sure if you can say anything about Japan in 2007 because of what happened in the earliest years of its formation. If the matriarchy did exist, however, Japan looks better than other countries (b/c matriarchy > patriarchy) and unique and that fits with your usual narrative. This may be ultimately about national image rather than anything deeper, but you could probably find more immediate explanations for Japan's "feminine" side in the last 100 years. (Like possibly, the emasculation of having to remain in a greater power's security umbrella without your own army or the fact that the economy developed in a way that put the burden of consumption solely on women.)

Marxy

Re: Confused

Date: 2007-09-09 11:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
I answered some of these points in the reply to the Alin thread above. It seems you aren't resisting the erstwhile matriarchy or insisting that no conclusions can be drawn based on what Japan was like 1000 years ago.

The "emasculation" theory is something I did address in the piece, though as an explanation of Lolicon and infantile behaviour, not feminine behaviour. I cited Murakami's "Little Boy" argument and said that if Japan really is, post-war, an infant, who better to represent power within that context than an infantilized adult? I probably don't have to stress the power of cute too much to someone who puts stuffed toys on his album sleeves, ne?

You admit now that Japan is pretty much patriarchal and that all the mainland Asian thought that reformed Japanese society pretty much wiped out the legacy of this "original state." So what are we even talking about? What is at stake?

At stake is a widespread misperception about Japanese women -- that they're less powerful than Western women, that they're "submissive", and that the history of Japan makes this so, and that they're "only now emerging" from this state. I think this is bullshit, both on a personal anecdotal level (you're married to a Japanese woman who hardly fits that stereotype, right? You presumably know as well as I do what nonsense it is) and historically.

Re: Confused

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2007-09-09 01:44 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Confused

From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-09-09 02:41 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Confused

From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-09-09 02:42 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Confused

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2007-09-09 11:41 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Confused

From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-09-10 12:04 am (UTC) - Expand

pen is envy

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2007-09-10 07:37 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 2007-09-09 10:59 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
"You're too macho, you act like a prince, you ought to learn to cook."

Well, you do tend to brag like a lad.

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