imomus: (Default)
imomus ([personal profile] imomus) wrote2007-06-26 10:50 am

Is Flickr "safe"?

Right now there's an annoying notice blocking the top of my Flickr account. It's only using 20% of allowable bandwidth, but my account has hit the magic -- and maximum -- number of 200 photos.

"You've run into one of the limits of a free account," the message says. "Your free account will only display the most recent 200 photos you've uploaded. All of your photos beyond 200 will remain hidden from view until you either delete newer photos, or upgrade to a Pro account. None of your photos have been deleted, and if you upgrade, they'll all come back unharmed."



So I go to upgrade, but they don't allow you to do it by Paypal, and I don't have a credit card. Yes, in an age filthy, slushy and sloshy with credit I don't have a card. In fact, I'm apparently such a bad credit risk that I got turned down for credit cards by two banks this year. Which is odd, because I'm pretty responsible -- I currently don't have any personal debt at all, whereas the average British adult currently owes £28,189, including mortgage debt. Keeping debt-free keeps me free in lots of other ways.

Anyway, I considered doing some cyber-begging here on Click Opera and asking some kind benefactor to spend $24.95 on a one-year Flickr Pro Gift Account so that I can keep on dazzling you with silly outfits and scenes of arme aber sexy Berlin.

Hmm... Berlin... Berlin... that rings a bell. Oh yes, it's the capital of Germany. And Germany is one of the countries that Flickr is currently censoring by preventing anyone located here from seeing anything even vaguely controversial -- from nude bodies to swastikas. No searches on Flickr in Germany can be run in anything but "safe" mode.



Apparently this lamentable situation is down to pressure from Flickr's parent company Yahoo, but it fits all too neatly into a global picture in which groovy creative internet startups get bigger, get bought by less groovy, less creative global moguls, who in turn knuckle under -- for reasons of realpolitik -- when trigger-happy judges or authoritarian governments grumble about people enjoying just a little too much of that groovy, creative personal freedom that got the whole thing started. Web 2.0 meets World 1.0, and World 1.0 wins.

What happens then is that newer, groovier startups sense a vulnerability in the megaliths, and attack the Achilles heels on their pigeon-toed rivals' feet of clay. Hence the person most vociferously attacking Flickr for censorship at this moment happens to be Thomas Hawk, CEO of rival service Zooomr.

Confession: I like Flickr better than Fotolog, which I somewhat absurdly wrote a book in support of last year, despite finding the service clunky as fuck (it may very well have improved since). I like the implementation of the Flickr slideshow, for instance. I like that I can find The Tate Gallery in a Flickr group, requesting photos of Britain to show on screens in current exhibition How We Are Now. That's democracy in action!



I think Flickr is probably better -- and certainly easier for me to use -- than Fotologue, Picasa and Photozou, the Japanese photo-sharing sites I blogged about in April (just as the Japanese now have more personal blogs than any other country, they've also overtaken us with the number of good photo-hosting sites).

But I have to say there's a lot about Flickr that troubles me, and it isn't just this censorship issue. I was annoyed when Yahoo bought Flickr, and I was forced to log into my account with a Yahoo ID. And I was annoyed to be told that my account had been reviewed and pronounced "safe" by Flickr staff. I was almost insulted -- had I neglected to post enough naked pictures of myself, or ancient Hindu religious symbols?

"Having a "safe" account," Flickr explained, "means that you are good at moderating your own content. Awesome!" Patronizing bastards! "Having a "moderate" flag on your account probably means that you are generally a good self-moderator, but occasionally things pop up in your photostream that may be in the wrong categories..."



As a relativist I baulk at the very idea of there being "wrong categories". I don't even use fucking categories, you fucking goons! I don't want to be a safe moderator, a moderate moderator, or whatever stupid phrases you come up with. And I don't rate the "safety levels" of my pictures because, honestly, tell me the last time a photo killed someone or invaded Iraq? Photos are all safe. Crossing the road is not. And clamping down on deviants, decadents and degenerates -- or collaborating with the judges and governments who do this -- is definitely not safe. See history.

"An "unsafe" account," Flickr continues, in the same infuriating school-marmish tone, "is something we think of as a loose cannon." Wikipedia defines that as "an irresponsible and reckless individual whose behaviour (either intended or unintended) endangers the group he or she belongs to". The implication is clear: you will attract attention from the authorities and we will all suffer. We have forestalled this by encouraging you to self-censor, and also by restricting your access to the content of fellow users in territories where we think the authorities might be strict. By, in other words, collaborating, in the spirit of "most puritan common denominator".

Flickr doesn't point to the vertical relationship with those authorities, though. It points to the horizontal relationship with other Flickr users, as if self-censorship were all a question of helping your friends by not rocking the boat. "It's not clear to us that you're moderating your own content at all, or if you are, you're not bearing in mind that there are other people using Flickr and that it's up to you to not be overtly offensive."



I'm sorry, I don't see Flickr as a "community". It's just a big hard disk where I store images, just like my Photobucket account (which, to its credit, has never asked me to flag my images -- although they did once censor a Ryan McGinley image, this one).

But even if Flickr were a community, why would its standards get set by the least tolerant corporations, judges and governments (hello, Singapore!) out there? What kind of community lets corporate caution, puritanism, fear of litigation and misinformation set its values? The wild American misconception that nudity, for instance, might somehow be offensive to Germans? We sit naked in public parks here, dudes!

So the question for today has to be, in the light of the way Flickr rates us and asks us to rate ourselves, and how it passes off realpolitik as "community values", and dubious collaboration with the world's worst judges and governments as "safe", and its users as "loose cannons", and photographs themselves -- its stock in trade -- as potentially, somehow, "unsafe", should we give this company a safe rating? And should we give Flickr our money?

[identity profile] grrrlishgrin.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 09:04 am (UTC)(link)
photobucket repeatedly censored this picture:

Image

(which i took at an all-ages art exhibition) for nudity. i uploaded it a few more times with captions like "art exhibition! PUBLIC ART EXHIBITION!" before i got it to stay up.)

i'm moving out of germany this summer, but i fear the u.s. won't be much better.

(Anonymous) 2007-06-26 09:17 am (UTC)(link)
So are you actually cyber-begging or aren't you?

[identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 09:21 am (UTC)(link)
I'm cyber-begging from the pulpit, in the grand old tradition of John Knox (tell people they're sinners, then pass round the collection box).

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(Anonymous) 2007-06-26 09:25 am (UTC)(link)
You don't have a credit card? How do you pay for things like plane tickets? With great wads of cash?

Actually I'm intrigued as to how you get by financially. I know Berlin is cheap, but I find it hard to believe your recording/performing career could really underwrite your peripatetic lifestyle. You're getting on years, what happens when you get sick? With no job in Germany you're probably not covered there, and as a non-resident of the UK, you're not covered there either.

[identity profile] tarsh.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 09:39 am (UTC)(link)
he dates rich women. (yes this is a joke)

[identity profile] alvaroceb.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 09:27 am (UTC)(link)
"Photos are all safe. Crossing the road is not"
Kurz und schlicht!
Frank Zappa said the same about words (words are all safe), when he discussed about censorship with PMRC representatives on the CNN's Crossfire in 1986 and 1987.

[identity profile] alvaroceb.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 09:35 am (UTC)(link)
"how you get by financially?" —that's something I'd also like to know.

[identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 10:36 am (UTC)(link)
I don't smoke, don't have a car, don't have kids, don't have property and live in the cheapest city in Europe, where my overheads are basically rent and food. I tend to pay for my travel by doing concerts in the places I visit.

If I need to use a credit card, Hisae pays with hers and I pay her back in cash. I've been paying her rent the last year, because I was earning more than her. But that was always something we agreed would stop if the Wired column fell through.

So currently I'm looking into new ways to earn money. And writing a book is my answer. I have a meeting on Saturday with the Paris publishers I've been talking to for the last couple of years, and hopefully we'll sign a contract and the book will do well.

I don't mind commercial pressure as a creative stimulus -- I think it's rather good for me, in fact. I've always been a "commercial creative". I've actually lived by my art, within the market system. No subsidies, no state support. And, since 1989 or so, it's worked. I can live -- modestly -- on my creative work. There have been bleak bits, though. The winter of early 2004 was the last one; me and Ayako had to sell soft toys through the Momus website to make rent.

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[identity profile] kineticfactory.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 09:42 am (UTC)(link)
I like Flickr, but cannot support it with its policies. As such, I've stopped uploading to it until/unless it backs down.

A lot of Flickr users (especially in Germany) are now moving to Ipernity (http://www.ipernity.com), a French service which appears to be a Flickr clone only with MP3 and video sharing as well.

[identity profile] cap-scaleman.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 09:53 am (UTC)(link)
No related to this entry (but rather your take on Pan's Labyrinth (http://imomus.livejournal.com/2007/06/19/)(which I haven't seen myself, so...)). Here is an essay on so-called F/X porn (http://www.theknowe.net/dfwfiles/pdfs/Wallace-FX_Porn.pdf)(which I consider to be related with that movie and your thoughts on it), by David Foster Wallace. In free Pdf.

(Anonymous) 2007-06-26 09:54 am (UTC)(link)
Click Opera reader: Actually I'm intrigued as to how you get by financially.

Momus: Anyway, I considered doing some cyber-begging here on Click Opera

[identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 10:20 am (UTC)(link)
Dear Click Opera Reader,

My name is Momus and I am contacting you for partnership in a very confidential financial transaction that involves the transfer and receivership of some deposit.

This deposit came from a private photography mine in our region which represent the major deposit of photos in my country. Coupled with the rebels activities which are sponsored by illegitimate sales of pcitures to foreign companies.

Presently the Government forces are occupying our regions which has forced us the locals out of the country in search of lucrative business outside our shores for investment purposes. Your imediate response will be appreciated as time is of essence. Details will be given to you when you respond: please include your direct phone number.

Sincerely,
Momus

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Flickr Paypal

[identity profile] robertsharl.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 10:00 am (UTC)(link)
I'm pretty sure I paid Paypal for my Flickr account, and for those I've gifted to my girlfriend and my brother (I'm credit card-less and debt-free too, and you're right it's remarkably liberating). Ahh.. now I check I see it's a new limitation. There's a lot of complaining happening though, and I suspect they'll move to resolve it somehow.

The censorship thing is of course more worrying. When China seemed to be blocking all Flickr image servers a couple of weeks ago I began to fear for my friends there, and to wonder if HK would be affected too. So far it doesn't appear to be blocked there, though it's affected by the same 'Safe-only' issue. It was especially ironic to listen to the despised Thatcher on Radio 4's retro-look at the HK hand-over, talking as if Chinese political control were a thing of the past, destined to fail inevitably as market forces kick in.

[identity profile] vinylboy20.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 10:49 am (UTC)(link)
They've STOPPED letting you use Paypal? I've used it to pay for my account the last two years!

[identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 11:15 am (UTC)(link)
"Things you should know about payments. You can pay by Visa, Mastercard, Amex or Discover."

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[identity profile] stanleylieber.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 11:28 am (UTC)(link)
Please feel free to host images here:

http://chan.stanleylieber.com

[identity profile] cap-scaleman.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 11:57 am (UTC)(link)
Awesome stuff Stanley!

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(Anonymous) 2007-06-26 11:57 am (UTC)(link)
Who owns Livejournal? Is Livejournal "safe"?

[identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 11:57 am (UTC)(link)
Meanwhile, Yahoo shareholders have rejected plans for the company to adopt a policy that opposes censorship on the internet (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6747095.stm).

[identity profile] cap-scaleman.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 12:09 pm (UTC)(link)
In March 2005, Yahoo! Inc. acquired Ludicorp and Flickr. During the week of June 28 all content was migrated from servers in Canada to servers in the United States, resulting in all data being subject to United States federal law. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flickr#History)

(Anonymous) 2007-06-26 12:55 pm (UTC)(link)
How about getting a debit card?

[identity profile] nato-dakke.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 01:02 pm (UTC)(link)
I was similarly outraged when I realized that the free service I partake in, and which has beyond question changed how people share their pictures and memories, sought to protect itself from legal liabilities!

Too many people confuse free of charge with free of restriction. Blame your local government for their laws regarding hooky-crosses, not the free ice cream vendor. (who you do seem determined to pay)

[identity profile] freesurfboards.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 02:00 pm (UTC)(link)
you're already "giving flikr money" by viewing ads on their website (not to mention hyping it). Yahoo doesn't deserve it.

"Having a 'safe' account means that you are good at moderating your own content." I like how it also implies that our initial impulse is always to put something lewd.

[identity profile] merrow-sea.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 04:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Exactly. Isn't the whole business model to make buckets of money off user-generated content? (They should be paying you to post as you have a following and a proven ability to curate and create interesting contexts.)

If you really need/want to stay with Flickr, at least for now, I'll make a donation. Having read your blog regularly for 2 years, and having received free copies of your music from friends, it seems fair.

And why shouldn't you pass the hat? Lots of bloggers do...

??

(Anonymous) 2007-06-26 02:03 pm (UTC)(link)
What, there are no debit cards in Europe? Practically every American with a bank account has a Visa or Mastercard number.

You (or anyone else) can put your images up for free, totally uncensored, at http://bayimg.com/. It's a new image-hosting service run by the good folks from The Pirate Bay. I'm surprised you haven't heard of it. Unlimited bandwidth and no interference with your shit.

[identity profile] mippy.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 02:46 pm (UTC)(link)
For reasons I can't be bothered to go into, I was looking for a host that could take pictures of abstract nudes. Photobucket banned my account for uploading, despite that it wasn't even slightly pornographic. On Flickr, people regularly post amateur porn, and can share them only through members-only viewing groups. This makes sense - it's like keeping porn on the top shelf where people can make a decision whether or not to look at it/offend.

Bong hits 4 jesus

[identity profile] cheapsurrealist.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 03:32 pm (UTC)(link)
And I was annoyed to be told that my account had been reviewed and pronounced "safe" by Flickr staff.

I wonder how much money they spend on reviewing accounts. What a ridiculous and tedious job.

Speaking of ridiculous. Here in the U.S. the Supreme Court continues to do "serious violence to the First Amendment (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/4918974.html)."

[identity profile] telephoneface.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 03:42 pm (UTC)(link)
...restricting your access to the content of fellow users in territories where we think the authorities might be strict. By, in other words, collaborating, in the spirit of "most puritan common denominator".

This got me a little worried, as the only reason I bought a pro account was to share photos I took from a recent trip to Egypt. Egypt is pro-America and the people (90% Sunni Muslims) showed no ill-will towards us but nevertheless i was uploading many images of desert people in headwraps, government officials carrying AK-47s, and the inside of Muhammad Ali mosque. So yeah, all the "is this safe?" talk has me a bit worried but thankfully so far they havent taken down any of my photos and there's really no reason to.

[identity profile] kumakouji.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 04:06 pm (UTC)(link)
Post a link to your flickr account please, I want to see your photos.

[identity profile] kumakouji.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 04:05 pm (UTC)(link)
Why are you begging for a Flickr account, then complaining about them? Why dont you just host your photos of your website?

Also, also... I expect kow-towing with my begging.

Jumping to conclusions

[identity profile] http://mylid.net/ryanshaw (from livejournal.com) 2007-06-26 04:15 pm (UTC)(link)

I don't want to break up the U.S.-bashing party here, but you're all jumping to some pretty off-base conclusions about Flickr and Yahoo here. (Disclaimer: I work for Yahoo Research, and I know many of the people behind the decisions re: Germany and Paypal.) I too am concerned about the concentration and abuse of power that can occur when companies merge, but I don't think Flickr is a case of that.

Here's basically what happened: Flickr decided it would be nice to finally offer localized interfaces internationally. Big mistake. Why? Because if you offer a localized service, you are then subject to local laws. And that, my friends, is a clusterfuck. Countries around the world have all kinds of retarded laws. The issues you're complaining about above are all the result of these retarded local laws—NOT U.S. laws. We don't have any laws about online nudity and age verification here; if you can click a mouse you can see the hardest of hardcore. Not so in Germany. Germans have a law (Jugendmedien-Staatsvertrag JMStV) that sets very stringent age-verification requirements for anything deemed possibly harmful to minors, including nudity. Now you might object that that law is hardly ever enforced, or that it is counter to German cultural norms, but none of that matters in a court of law. All it takes is one local politico who decides that he's going to make a name for himself and take down the big American company, and Flickr is screwed. This is the real difference between the groovy startups and the global moguls: the latter make far more attractive targets, for hackers and politicians alike.

The Paypal decision is similar—international payment processing using straight Paypal while keeping in line with myriad international finance laws was turning out to be impossible. They're now in the process of negotiating new deals with local payment providers in various countries that will all easy non-credit card payment in line with local laws, but its taking some time. While that's underway, if you're unable to renew your Pro account due to this, the Flickr staff will happily extend your account for free in the meantime.

Moral of the story? Pay attention to the laws your local politicians are passing, because even if they're rarely enforced they may come bite you in the ass. It isn't the job of U.S. companies to decide which local laws can be safely ignored (that job is reserved for our Vice President).

Re: Jumping to conclusions

[identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 04:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, thanks for explaining, Ryan. I buy a lot of what you're saying, but surely the fact that Yahoo has its own Yahoo Wallet to rival Paypal has more to do with that decision than the "myriad international finance laws" thing, which would surely apply to Yahoo Wallet too?
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Re: Jumping to conclusions

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Re: Jumping to conclusions

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[identity profile] obliterati.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 06:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Photo hosting aside, at the very least I'm happy to hear about other people who avoid credit cards.

I have "blogs" around the web which are just online storage for media and articles I want to find later and often this is mistaken for real content and/or membership in a "community", which is obvious bullshit. When I found out people were actually reading my Vox blog I was pretty surprised, because pretty much the only thing I had up there were a series of typos and picture of my friend getting her nipple pierced. I guess that constitutes "community" for the Sixapart brand.

[identity profile] 19-crows.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 08:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Thanks for your clear description of this. I just upgraded and I'm wondering if I will want to when it expires.

Post-materialism for pretend lefties

(Anonymous) 2007-06-26 08:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Taking a siesta from poverty preaching to the not quite superlegitimate proles in order to scrounge some extra real estate on flikr?
I suggest you go post-materialist eclectic on the free space you have, you Knoxian, Pecksniffian, sporran shaker..


Re: Post-materialism for pretend lefties

[identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com 2007-06-26 09:23 pm (UTC)(link)
At least I can spell Flickr!

Pedagogue

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