Evil Gini

Jun. 9th, 2005 10:04 am
imomus: (Default)
[personal profile] imomus
Well, it's 8am, the time I normally get down to writing my Click Opera entry for the day. I'd intended to write a piece about Gini coefficients, a complex subject requiring lots of research, references, figures, quotes, pastes. But since my internet service is down right now (if you're reading this it's either come back up or I've hacked into someone's wifi on the street) I've decided to make a virtue of necessity. I've decided to give you an account of the research I did yesterday into the Gini coefficient from memory. A bit like Nicholson Baker, who wrote his book about John Updike, U and I, without consulting any Updike books; he was interested in measuring the impact Updike's work had made on him over the years, not demonstrating what a good researcher he was. The really important Updike lines and scenes would be the ones imprinted on his memory, he figured, not incidental stuff he stumbled on looking through the books.

The piece I had in mind wasn't just going to be a dry exposition of Gini coefficients as a statistical measure of the gap between the rich and the poor (which is what they are). It was going to be about how Gini is an objective measure of something you're very much aware of subjectively when you visit a country, and how Gini might be seen as a measure of evil, social evil.

Gini was an Italian statistician who invented a very simple way to rate the relationship between the richest and poorest ten per cent of the population in any given country. A rating of zero in his coefficient means that there's no inequality: everyone in the land has exactly the same income. (Obviously nowhere like this actually exists.) A rating of one means that one individual is hogging the entire wealth of the land. (Some African states are a bit like this, with one gigantic palace for the president and a starving population.) If you'll allow me to play on words, think of inequality as a genie. A Gini rating of zero means this genie is absent, and a rating of 1 means the genie is there, squatting over the land like a malevolent monster. Because, yes, this genie is evil. Rather than giving you three wishes, he's going to take all your happiness away and replace it with envy, bitterness, insecurity and resentment. Unless, that is, you're already unusually rich.

Okay, here's the general picture, as I recall it from my readings yesterday. In all but a handful of countries (liberal democratic places like Sweden, Germany, Canada) the Gini rating is currently rising. The gap between the richest and poorest is increasing. The worldwide Gini rating is about 0.5. Half a genie. That's high, about the same as Brazil's rating, and Brazil is one of the most unequal countries in the world. So if you want to know, from your experience in a single country, what global inequality feels like, visit Brazil. Anecdote: I remember talking to Francoise Cactus about Stereo Total's trip to Brazil a couple of years ago. She said it was terrifying. She was taking an afternoon nap in her hotel room and woke up to find a man in the room. He was in the process of stealing all her valuables. When he saw she was awake he hurled himself through the window and splashed down in the swimming pool three floors below, swam to the edge, and ran off.

What does that man have to do with Gini coefficients? Everything. In lands where the genie of inequality squats over the population there's obviously a lot of envy and desperation. Some are very rich, others very poor. The rich are probably corrupt, maintaining their privilege by bribing politicians not to change anything. The poor know this and, questioning the legitimacy of the whole system, turn to crime. Nobody trusts anybody else. It's a recipe for hellish experiences. You don't have to spend much time in a genie country to have one, or hear about one.

There's a worldwide ranking of countries by Gini rating here. The most highly unequal country is Sierra Leone (.62 of a genie), the most equal country Belarus (.21 of a genie). Japan is fourth lowest of the nations ranked in this table (dated 2004) at .24 of a genie. Gini is high in the US, about .4 and rising. (In the table, as soon as you go higher than the US you mostly see incredibly corrupt African countries.) The moments you're most aware of America's high Gini are when you're, for instance, passing through the poor parts of Brooklyn on your way to the rich parts of Manhattan, or when you're walking down a street in LA and see that every house has a sign planted in the lawn where a bush should be, a hard-ass sign saying that if you intrude a rapid response SWAT team will be dispatched to fucking fix you. You're aware of it when you see lots of private security guys, or when you're told that X district is safe but Y district is dangerous. People have a tendency to think that these are givens and that they apply anywhere in the world ("you've got to keep your wits about you, know the score, stay safe"). But in fact they're only issues in high Gini places. They're something we organize structurally, and something we can repair politically. The genie can be banished... if you want it.

Let's look at times when the Gini rate of a nation changed rapidly. Well, Russia and China, as they've abandoned communism, have seen their Gini rates double in a decade or so. Did I tell you that when I went to Moscow my concert agent told me about how some Chechens had carjacked a BMW she'd bought from casino winnings, tied her up and left her in a forest, and how the police hadn't been able to do a thing about it? Well, that's a typical high Gini story. I was appalled. I've probably mentioned before that Russian life expectancy is falling and has been since communism ended, right? That's also a result of the genie. Sure, some people are getting richer, but other people are getting poorer than they ever were, poorer and more depressed. Suddenly, they don't have a medical service any more. In high Gini societies there are winners and losers. You know who you are.

There was a time after World War II when Gini levels were falling all over the world. Countries like Britain had Keynesian economics, welfare states were established, programs of nationalisation were fashionable, putting important resources into the hands of the people instead of private owners. You spoke about "the classless 60s". Of course it wasn't classless, but that was the general direction. It also spilled over into culture: in the low Gini 60s working class culture like the music of The Beatles could become respectable. Postmodernism began to demolish the distinction between high and low art. Even in America, where they don't see the genie as particularly malevolent, Gini was falling. The all-time high Gini gap was in the 1920s, when the US was basically a few Rockerfeller-type millionaires, some gangsters, and millions of poor people. By the late 1960s, the US was a much more equitable place, but the trend, here and elsewhere in the world, began to reverse in the early 70s. Gini levels began to rise again, and sharply, as people like Thatcher and Reagan privatised industries and organised their politics around incentivising entrepreneurs. Suddenly a minority was doing really well, but the majority was slipping. The genie was back. Well, the US is now back up to the Gini levels it saw in the 1920s. And it doesn't look as if the trend is going to be reversed any time soon. There just isn't the political will to do it, in the people or in the programs of political parties.

When I started reading about the genie I felt like I knew him already. There was anti-genie sentiment built into my aesthetics. I'm a tender-minded person, and I like tender-minded places. I don't want to spend time in places where it's like some sort of violent Darwinian jungle. The relative presence or absence of the evil genie of inequality explains why I like Berlin but not London, why I like Tokyo but not Hong Kong. If I go to a city that feels like it's a volatile mix of extreme wealth and poverty, I feel at once that something is wrong, and that I'm in danger. I know that violence of various kinds is likely. I know that the sense of legitimacy will be weak (even if police presence is strong — they're absolutely not the same thing) and that I'll be moving through scenes of appalling degradation and decadence. It's perfectly normal to see, in a high Gini city, a mutilated beggar sitting on the sidewalk next to a uniformed hotel commissionaire, next to a policeman with a machine gun. If peace reigns there, it reigns because someone is pointing a weapon at any sources of potential conflict. It certainly doesn't reign because people love each other, or all feel like they belong, or feel they're all on the same side. In a high genie society everyone is tough-minded and realistic. Realistic and wrong.

It doesn't have to be this way. Feelings of belonging, of the basic legitimacy and trustworthiness of the system you're part of, are tremendously important. I do feel them in Japan, and I do feel them in Germany. Those are both rich countries, but I think I might also feel the same thing in a poor country which didn't have extremes of wealth and inequality: Bhutan, perhaps. The sad thing is that fewer and fewer countries are proving able to banish the genie of inequality, or even to formulate in public the idea that he's evil. Right now, the genie is winning. So let's buy shares in barbed wire and machine guns, or let's battle him back down into his stinky little bottle.
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(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 08:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] polocrunch.livejournal.com
The worldwide Gini rating is about 0.5. Half a genie. That's high, about the same as Brazil's rating, and Brazil is one of the most unequal countries in the world.

Surely having a Gini coefficient equal to the world average would make Brazil an averagely unequal country, not one of the most unequal in the world?

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 09:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 33mhz.livejournal.com
Not necessarily. A few especially high countries could pull up the average so that while Brazil may sit at the mean value, it is still above the median value.

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From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2005-06-09 05:02 pm (UTC) - Expand

:)

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Re: :)

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(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 08:30 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Momus! This is really insightful... Having just moved back to Britain from Japan, I can see exactly where you're coming from. What a great post.

So, any plans to move to Belarus (or the Slovak Republic which has a gini of 19.5)?

There are some interesting discrepancies though - Rwanda is apparently the 16th most equal...

Rob.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 09:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 33mhz.livejournal.com
I bet those would probably smooth out if you did some sort of weighted average based on relative gdp. Comfort + equality = peace, usually.

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(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 08:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] beingjdc.livejournal.com
If you have Powerpoint and some spare time, there's some fascinating work on these issues in this presentation

http://www.scrsj.ac.uk/ESRCseminars/JohnHillspp.pdf

condom

Date: 2006-03-17 08:11 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I wish everybody do his job like you do http://condom2.cars-search.org/

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 08:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jermynsavile.livejournal.com
Share with you a distaste for travelling in places where the disparity between rich & poor is too great.

I lived near Oxford Street in the 80s during the first years of the Thatcher experiment and was first shocked, then saddened and then, finally, pretty indifferent to the sight of the expanding number of homeless men and women huddled overnight with their belongings in the doorways of the big luxury stores. It is disappointing how quickly one can become immune to the misery of others. If I'm honest it was only when I moved away and it became a less familiar sight that I became able to 'see' it again.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 09:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] boof-boy.livejournal.com
You manage to write so much ... do you touch-type? How many wpm?
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 01:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dzima.livejournal.com
Oh, I expected Canada to do better than this. It's only noticeably better than America when it comes to health care and number of homicides.

gene genie?

Date: 2005-06-09 10:45 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Hey Momus, I'm kinda surprised that what with your ideas about what-comes-after-postmodernism, penchant for convoluted metaphors and, not least, your Dave Bowie love you didn't jump on the opportunity to tie them up into a awkward synthesis. The 'gene genie' index, for example (if you'll allow me to play on words). Something about how, in the future, the gini index will take on a startling new manifestation as wealthy elites pay to cherry pick enhanced genetic atributes for themselves thus ushering in an age where a tiny oligarchy control nearly all the world's resources and maintain gross innequalities by using their genetically enhanced strength, beauty and charisma to oppress masses of poverty stricken, weak, ugly people. But at the same time it remains a society which is comfortable enough about reappropriating the past to listen to old david bowie lps. Or something...
Come on Nick, keep up.
Nice blog by the way.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 11:12 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Nice job. You managed to make an extremely dry subject mildly interesting. I bet you could have even used the word "aggregate" in a totally hip way.

A small doubt: as much as I dislike Reagan and his awful stepchild Bush II's tax cuts, I don't think anyone has proven that increases in inequality are 100% related to changes in the tax code. Post-industrial economies generally reward those who already have accumulated capital or those with complex skills (education capital), which tends to make the gap widen without direct government influence. So we're all kind of doomed to more inequality even if the Republicans lose the next U.S. presidential election.

Japan is starting its fall from a nice Gini position, so it has quite a bit of room before things go to U.S. levels.

Marxy

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-01 11:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anashi.livejournal.com
Japan is starting its fall from a nice Gini position, so it has quite a bit of room before things go to U.S. levels.

3 years have passed and anon is right on the money, sadly. D:

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 12:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bluedevi.livejournal.com
This was an excellent article, lucid and readable. It was the best explanation of the issue I've seen so far. And you did it from memory? Good lord. How would you feel about me printing it out and distributing it to my A-level sociology class for discussion?

By the way, your journal is great - informative and entertaining on such a wide variety of subjects, from economics to Michael Jackson to art to girl-talk. Thank you.

(/shameless sycophancy)

commonism

Date: 2005-06-09 01:30 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
If knowledge economies reward those with cultural/intellectual capital exponentially, then all that stuff that Negri/Hardt talk about in Multitude and Empire seems like an inevitable politics. Network socialism, or something. Led by hackers and artists. 'Singularities' within the 'multitude'.

God we *really* need a new Marx do we not...

pat kane

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 01:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] godfreygoode.livejournal.com
Because welfare states instill a sense of victimhood and entitlement in poor people, feelings of resentment are created for people with money and for the system itself. You have now created a group of people who feel as if there's no reason to work, and that stealing is justified because the government is TELLING THEM, by creating the welfare state, that they are victims and cannot move up on their own.

The extreme mixture of poverty and wealth in New York is due to the New Deal-era policy of rent control. Landlords are getting tiny revenues from rents, relative to property taxes and what the land is actually worth. Because tenants living under rent control have such a great deal and not likely to move, they are at the mercy of the landlord. Thus, landlords have no incentive to do anything but the bare minimum maintenance. The result is a dilapidated Brooklyn. So you see how a policy which had very noble intentions actually ends up hurting everyone.

When everything is owned by the state there is no incentive to make anything efficient. In Cold War Germany, the farms in the West produced 600x what the East did. With socialism, there is no gap between the rich and the poor: instead, everyone is made poor.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 02:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jermynsavile.livejournal.com
I could quite happily argue that the American-style capitalist model instils "a sense of victimhood" and our current talent-free culture of celebrity creates a sense of "entitlement in poor people". Don't necessarily blame it on a welfare state. I live in a country with a parasite monarchy and class system, what is that telling me about the need to work? I don't steal and I still work. I think that the attitudes you describe owe more to cultural messages than economic systems.

As for 'The extreme mixture of poverty and wealth in New York is due to the New Deal-era policy of rent control.' Are there really no other reasons? How to explain the great disparities of wealth across the rest of the world? Apparently the New Deal has a lot to answer for.

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Balance

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(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 03:06 pm (UTC)
aberrantangels: (political poo)
From: [personal profile] aberrantangels
By the late 1960s, the US was a much more equitable place, but the trend, here and elsewhere in the world, began to reverse in the early 70s. Gini levels began to rise again, and sharply, as people like Thatcher and Reagan privatised industries and organised their politics around incentivising entrepreneurs.

In the US at least, this is in fact something that was deliberately done by creating a media atmosphere in which state capitalism was labelled "the free market" and opposition to its inequities was identified with support for bread lines and five-year plans. (I call this the "Adam Smith said it, I believe it, that settles it" school of economics, though to be fair, it really has less to do with Smith than with that corpsefucker Herbert Spencer.) How well it worked can be inferred from comments like [livejournal.com profile] godfreygoode's.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 03:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jermynsavile.livejournal.com
Thanks for making my point rather better than I did!

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(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 03:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] transient-poet.livejournal.com
Do you think there is any offset due to the increasil}ngly cheap manufacture of technology? For example I am right now in a tropical rainforest, surfing the internet. Production becomes cheaper and thus more accessable. Of course at the same time median wages most likely drop. Still many poor today are better off in a number of ways than Roman Emporers were. Running water and anti-biotics. Yet the gaps are even wider. And of course the poorest of the poor live virtually indifferently through all of civilization. On the street, diseased, begging for scraps.
Your description of LA reminds me of Neal Stephenson´s Snow Crash.

poorer and more depressed

Date: 2005-06-09 03:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] reflejos.livejournal.com
To be depressed is a phenomenon mostly of rich people. I would say more that poor people tend to get desperate. But also they have a capacity of joy that you don't see in any rich people.

I see it here, living in a high, maybe one of the highest genie countries (Colombia). Your description is fairly good, but it doesnt escape of beeing typical of someone who looks at it from very far away.

I think its cruel, but many of the most interesting things happen in the high genie countries (the main examples should be Brasil and Mexico). You are not allowed to desire it for any country, but you should really visit and live in one of them. There is a lot of life in this countries you don't see in the others. Germany and Japan look tremendously dull from there.

But one issue is clear. In Colombia many people, most of the rich ones (including me) tend to overlook the whole picture. Its terrible, maybe thats one of the reasons. But it has a lot to be with habitus too. It is a question each Colombian does to himself frecuently (even more when living outside of the country).

[Maybe this is the main issue, you see the things SO DIFFERENTLY when you are outside than inside, even beeing a Colombian]

What I mean, your view is interesting and points out things one should not omit, but it has a naiveté that is strange for Momus.

[But you get to the point, the most important problem to be attacked here is the distribution of the wealth]

[Another question here is: ¿What if the few people who can make a difference vote with their feet?]

Re: poorer and more depressed

Date: 2005-06-10 02:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pinkfoils.livejournal.com
I understand Momus' point of view about unequal countries and the severity of a place filled with the poorest poor and the dirty rich, but at the same time, I agree with this comment moreso (in terms of some rich/poor countries whose people have this immense capacity for joy and life): I think of one of my favorite writers, Eduardo Galeano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduardo_Galeano), who is from Uruguay and was publishing political cartoons at age 14 and how unlikely that sort of thing would be in present day U.S., considering even the college student youth here is depressingly apathetic. There's something interesting about places like Mexico, where the poor knows very well that the government is pulling a fast one on them from very early on, versus the U.S. where media and celebrity distract the public from caring. Although I guess either way you're screwed between those two (not that I want to end my comment with that sentiment, but really, which would one choose: the police commiting many of the crimes in your country or a country full of greedy bastards?).

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 04:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cerulicante.livejournal.com
Since we're the US, we obviously got where we are by grinding babies into powder to fuel our SUVs; there's no way that hard work and innovation had anything to do with it, right?

And, since when does a country NOT take its own best interests into account? I'd say that Europe is the biggest hypocrit of them all, since they have this penchant for not liquidating their entire continent and giving that money to the poor people so that billions in Africa and billions in Europe can all eat sticks and mud and be dirt poor together. That will make everyone happy! It's a shame that the European countries are so obsessed with "not dissolving and giving all their wealth to the needy" that they have these ultra-nationalistic laws that protect the integrity of their financial markets.


Very selfish and shameful, I'd say. We're idiot Americans, of course we want money and power. But you ENLIGHTENED Europeans that know better should be leading by example and allowing poor people to have free and unfettered access to your personal wealth. Your children can grow up uneducated, in dirt huts, with terrible diseases...and think of how good they'll feel when you tell them their fatal dysentery is helping to fund schools in a country they'll never live to visit! How wonderful that will be!

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 05:51 pm (UTC)
aberrantangels: (the Matrix has you)
From: [personal profile] aberrantangels
Are you a member of the Ray Bolger Fan Club? Because you sure did pack a lot of straw-men into one post. You completely failed to address any of Momus' points. (I'd apologize for not addressing any of your points, except that you'd have had to bother including points for me to be able to address them. Since all you did was pour out sneers and adjectives... *shrug*) Everyone who has Momus on their friendslist is now a little dumber just for reading your comment. You lose the internets, and may $deity have mercy on whatever you use for a soul.

(no subject)

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(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 05:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] maybeimdead.livejournal.com
I really enjoyed this piece of pop economics! It would be interesting to look at low Gini countries and see how much spare time people have, and what they do with that spare time. Under the right conditions (public education, affordable housing, universal healthcare) I suspect the low Gini ones could also end up being the more sustainable ones? It just sucks that some people have to work long hours just to pay off that huge mortgage in a gated community in the middle of nowhere. People need enough time to think about what they're doing and avoid the distracting game of "upward mobility".

Have you read any works by Jane Jacobs?

Pop music and class

Date: 2005-06-09 05:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kineticfactory.livejournal.com
Was the music of the Beatles a specifically working-class? If so, what about rock music made by middle-class musicians such as the Rolling Stones?

Re: Pop music and class

Date: 2005-06-10 01:50 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
The horn solo to "Penny Lane" was very working class.

Marxy

Re: Pop music and class

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(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 06:02 pm (UTC)
aberrantangels: (geek)
From: [personal profile] aberrantangels
And I just noticed that, in the low-Gini countries, Japan is surrounded by Baltic states (Belarus, Sweden), confirming my notion (propounded in my contribution to Strange Machine) that the Pacific Rim and the Baltic will be the new centers of power in post-industrial civilization.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 06:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] georgesdelatour.livejournal.com
I've not been to Belarus, though I know people in neighboring countries; and my impression is that the black economy there is so huge as to make the gini figures unreliable.

(no subject)

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(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 06:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] georgesdelatour.livejournal.com
Does anyone here know about Gini and the Nordic countries? My impression is that the Swedes, Finns and others have managed to combine the better aspects of capitalism and socialism. They seem good at business, forward-looking businesses too, and they also have a good public realm, public transport, education etc. Maybe there's some horrible dark side I don't know about...

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 09:23 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<maybe [...] there's>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

<Maybe there's some horrible dark side I don't know about...>

That would be alcoholism, boredom and depression.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 07:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] loverboy82.livejournal.com
I find these statistics very interesting and surprising. I grew up in New York City and I've been living in China for the past year, and apparently China has a slighly lower Gini than the U.S. although I would have guessed it would be much higher. I would have also thought that Germany would have a relatively higher Gini because of the reunification.


I also feel a need to chime in agreement with [livejournal.com profile] reflejos; you're attitude about how wonderful it is to be in rich countries all the time is close-minded and obnoxious. People should go to places which aren't rich, which aren't equal, to see how most people in the world actually live. I find it strange that you complain about Hong Kong, which is actually a quite rich & international city. I understand these places may be offensive to your delicate sensibilities but I think by turning your nose up & away you risk cutting yourself off from a large part of the real world.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 08:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] depechenick.livejournal.com
China's Gini index is lower than America's largely due to its large population of rural poor. But can anyone honestly say that their economic system is more just than America's? Much of the wealth in China is being accrued to the powerful and well-connected (e.g. corrupt government officials).

While Momus may try to spook us with his "Evil Gini," the truth is that the Gini index tells us very little about the "basic legitimacy and trustworthiness of the system" that he associates it with. Have you noticed Belarus at the bottom of the list?

(no subject)

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(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 07:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] butterflyrobert.livejournal.com
For the most part I agree with your "equal results > equal opportunity". However, such a system would be murder for the gloriously talented and distinct - such people would become jaded and cynical in such a system.

I propose "almost equal, fair results with a window of opportunity for the talented and distinct". Abolish poverty and abolish the ridiculously wealthy, leaving a playground in a somewhat wide spectrum of middle for people to play around and find their place in.

Still, as I've said before, "fixing things" with governments and legislation is an impossibility. "Fixing things" with people at an individual level is the only path that can succeed in creating an ideal world. "Soul evolution" and "social consciousness" or the "willful evolution of human consciousness".

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 08:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anti-peace-riot.livejournal.com
Whenever I read your livejournal, I always learn something new. Oddly enough, in the description of the genie my thoughts went back to tales of Robin Hood that my parents told. A poor village and a rich Prince.

But if the gap between the rich and the poor is getting larger even more these days, how do we stop it? What prevents the rich from getting richer?

What resources do you use to find out about these things? And for that matter, what inspires you to right about certain topics?

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 09:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
What resources do you use to find out about these things? And for that matter, what inspires you to right about certain topics?

I use the company whose share value just overtook Time Warner's (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4072772.stm). And this topic came up because I was trying to refute the ideas of a Japan-based postgrad marketing student called Marxy and needed some objective measures of Japan's superflatness, which he's always poo pooing and telling us is spiking up. By the way, Marxy, I don't agree with this:

Japan is starting its fall from a nice Gini position, so it has quite a bit of room before things go to U.S. levels.

Why, in a world where most countries are increasing their Gini ratios, do you think Japan will increase its own more quickly than others? I didn't realise you thought Japan was about to introduce the sort of radical market liberalisation that would result in such rapid increases in inequality that it'll actually overtake all those other nations above it in the Gini ladder? Do you get secret LDP memos we don't?

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] anti-peace-riot.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-06-09 10:24 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2005-06-10 02:00 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-09 09:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] uberdionysus.livejournal.com
Momus, you always have insightful posts and are always a delight to read, but this was my favorite post by you so far. I'm obsessed with this shit right now; working at an investment bank has really brought out my hatred for high Gini situations. It was always there before, but now... seeing how and where money goes and how inefficient and wasteful the entire system is... it really pisses me off.

The world is going in a dark direction, in my opinion, and it's hard to understand why. The periods of optimism (the 60s revolutions, the late 90s fall of the USSR) have been replaced by darker times that almost ridiculed the prior optimism (the devasting West supported corruption of African states in the 60s, the corruption of unfettered capitalism in the former USSR in the late 90s).

Interesting but...

Date: 2005-06-09 09:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thetemplekeeper.livejournal.com
Hi

First of all, thanks for yet another interesting analysis.

I don't believe the Geni figures reflect comfort, safety or equality very well at all, unfortunately.

Firstly, Belarus: it might have less inequality than most other states in the world (though as an earlier poster has pointed out, black marketeering is apparently rife there); however, would you really feel safe in a place totally dominated by its oppressive president? Alexander Lukashenko has already disbanded one parliament on the back of a phoney referendum, then hand-picked a new one (http://www.politicalinformation.net/encyclopedia/Alexander_Lukashenko.htm). He controls the Belarus police and presides over a powerful secret service (still called the KGB!), has expelled many foreign diplomats (including Japan's, UK's, Germany's, USA's...), intimidates and silences his political opponents (http://web.amnesty.org/pages/blr-290304-action-eng), violates so-called "human rights" (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR490232004)... In short, Belarus is not a nice place to live and if people are quiet there, that's because they are oppressed by their government!

Secondly, Chechnya: the implication that Chechnyan guerillas are at war with Russia principally because they feel comparatively poor is wrong, I believe. The struggle between these countries is ancient and seems historically more the result of religious affiliation and power struggles (Chechens being predominantly Muslim and Tartar, Russians Christian and Muscovite Slavs), while present troubles go back at least to 1937, when Stalin tried to "purge" that troublesome Southern nation of its belligerent population, or 1944, when he deported almost its entire native population to Siberia and uninhabitable areas of Kazakhstan, ostensibly because he was afraid they would join forces with Hitler (unsurprisingly, given his actions before WWII). In the 1990s, Chechnyan guerillas agitated for independence in the wake of that granted its Southern Muslim neighbours, eventually gaining some autonomy from Russia; however, Yeltsin later revoked that autonomy and ordered his army to invade and supress Chechnya, most likely for control of Chechen oil fields as well as to show Russia's power to its people in the aftermath of Communism (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/577525.stm).

Sorry for this seemingly pedantic reply; however, I think your post at least in part unfairly distorts current situations and I thought it best to show where I disagree most strongly.

However, thank you very much for advancing a very interesting point of view!

Re: Interesting but...

Date: 2005-06-09 10:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thetemplekeeper.livejournal.com
I laugh at myself sometimes, I really do...

In my post above, pelase disregard my moronic statement that Chechens were Tartar: I had completely forgotten that the Tartar empire stopped there and that the Chechens were their very fierce and valiant opponents! Thought I'd better add this before I get glared at...

Re: Interesting but...

From: [identity profile] thetemplekeeper.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-06-09 10:04 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 2005-06-10 03:19 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
"The rich are probably corrupt, maintaining their privilege by bribing politicians not to change anything. The poor know this and, questioning the legitimacy of the whole system, turn to crime."

This is truly ingenious insight. Let me guess, the solution is more government!
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