imomus: (Default)
[personal profile] imomus
From time to time, Satanists and Occultists seem to take an interest in me. Perhaps it's because my bid to chart a single in the UK Top 40, back in 1989, was called "The Hairstyle of the Devil". Perhaps it's because Momus is the name of a non-Christian deity, or because I sing about "the old religion", or because my name appears on the Famous Non-Believers List. Or perhaps it's simply because my name is Nick and I'm old.

Well, I have to thank someone called Jason Louv for sending me the book he edits, Generation Hex (Disinformation), an attempt to connect alternative culture to the occult. "Magic is what sprouts up between the cracks in the modern world and its ideologies," Jason writes in his introduction, 'Towards an Ultraculture'. "Its branches and leaves curl forth from underneath the halls of church and state, from our television and computer screens, from every bookstore and tabloid rack—if we know how to look." Jason also included a DVD of "Disinformation: The Complete Series", the TV show made by the Disinformation Company and broadcast by Channel 4 in the UK, "which Richard Metzger wanted you to have". Metzger is the co-founder of Disinformation, the missing link between Adbusters and Beelzebub, between No Logo and Belial. On the cover of the video he lifts a quizzical eyebrow, like someone convinced of his own enormous charismatic power. On his blog, though, he seems like a fairly normal yuppie; he's just discovered reggae dub, for instance, and is "buying several new CDs a week and generally driving my girlfriend to utter despair".

I found the shows pretty silly, to be honest, rather like long-forgotten Channel 4 tabloid TV shows Rapido and Eurotrash, with some kind of diluted post-Seattle-Satanism replacing frenchness as the structuring gimmick. But actually, it would probably be more subversive, in today's America, to come across as a Frenchman than to drop vague hints that you worship where it smells of sulphur.

Actually, the hints aren't all that vague. "Things you'll never see on television!" boasts the DVD sleeve, then lists "Satanism!" as the very first item. There's a familiar cast of alternatives and iconoclasts featured in interviews and the conference clips on Disc 2: Genesis P. Orridge, Douglas Rushkoff, Robert Anton Wilson, Marilyn Manson, Kenneth Anger, Grant Morrison. Now, some of these people are friends of friends, or people I've heard are admirers of my work. But it's somewhat disturbing to see them all collected together to vaunt irrationality as a solution to the world's problems, and Satan as a binding force for the subculture. It's as disappointing, in its way, as reading biographies of David Bowie and realising that cocaine and LA occultists really did make him a bit insane for a couple of years in the 70s (he saw Satan's face in his swimming pool, believed witches were collecting his sperm, and was terrified to see a demonic white hand around his wife's waist in an old photo).

It's always disappointing when you hear how credulous and irrational your heroes are. For instance, I've spoken in this blog before about a certain admiration for Genesis P. Orridge. The man has style, and has made some great work, so he's welcome to read Aleister Crowley books all day if he likes. But I was a bit disappointed to hear—from a member of a famous goth band, as it happens—that Gen, on the night of the fire at Rick Rubin's house in which he fell from a window and was later awarded a million dollars for his injuries, had been burying voodoo dolls in the ground. Jesus, was all that satanic abuse stuff that made him leave Britain true, then? You know, how... silly.

Yes, Satanism just strikes me as... silly, I'm afraid. Why abandon the idiocy of God if you're not also going to abandon the idiocy of The Devil? Sure, I love mystery, and I love "the old religion", the Greek pantheon, the Celts, Shinto, all that stuff. What I hate, though, is the way Christianity vilified fertility religions and made them "evil". You can still see the result of that in the way various speakers at the Disinfo conference, included on the DVD, have a certain "evil glow" in their eyes, or believe they possess an "evil charisma". America's idiotic binary culture forces you to be good or evil, with or against, constructive or destructive. The result is that alternative culture people internalize the stigma of otherness, becoming Fashion Goths and Slayer fans.

Just as the principal danger of anti-capitalism is that it makes you think like a capitalist, so the principal danger of Satanism is that it makes you think like a Christian. I am very, very evil, you think. Well, no you're not. If Christianity is silly, just walk away from it, and from its stigmas too; its dark underbelly, its Satanism. I mean, I'm all for people like Rushkoff reviving ethics and comparing the early internet to the Talmud. Interesting metaphor. And I must say Robert Anton Wilson comes across in his clip like a sweetie, an old Silenus or Pan type. But—well, here comes the inevitable Japan bit—I'm really so over this Western demonization of paganism, this I'm-so-evil thing. Shinto in Japan is a quiet, gentle, mainstream influence, and you can embrace its fertility messages, its nature messages, and its animism messages without having to become an outsider, or waggle your eyebrows like a second-rate magician practicing in front of the mirror. In other words, what in the West would be an alternative culture which you'd have to be a deviant or a nut or an outsider to embrace is, in Japan, something central which you can conform towards.

I dislike Satanism for aesthetic reasons too. Occult sections in bookstores are usually magnets for the spottiest, stupidest, most badly-dressed people. Occultist websites are appalling cautionary tales, evidence that, whatever else he does, Satan makes you commit every graphic design sin known to man. But I particularly resist precisely this thing that Jason Louv is advocating in Generation Hex, the stringing together of Satanism and alternative culture. I resist it because it's just fucking boring to see the counterculture summed up with a skull. But also because alternative culture has some important work to do, work it needs rationality and clear-headedness to carry through, and work which it needs to believe in its own ethical goodness to bring to mainstream acceptance. Wouldn't it be terrible if everyone, for instance, who thought there were other shibboleths than endless economic growth, all turned out to go to secret meetings and make secret signs to each other and think they were "evil"? Wouldn't it be a bit of a blow to the open source software movement, for instance, if you could say of its hobbit-like proponents, as these Satanist kids josh about Jason Louv, "Jason Louv drinks with nobody but the devil, I tell you! Satan mixes his cocktails! A horned beast with a dark and terrifying cock stirs his vodka martini and a putrid she-devil with monkeys for tits pours his lager! No man on earth dare sip from the same cup!" I mean, that wouldn't just be disinformation and defamation, it would be something much worse: distraction.
Page 1 of 2 << [1] [2] >>

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 09:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stanleylieber.livejournal.com
You do realize that the Church of Satan denies the existence of the Devil, right?

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 10:00 am (UTC)
zotz: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zotz
I am never able to understand why that's supposed to make them less childish as opoosed to more so.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] stanleylieber.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 10:07 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] zotz - Date: 2005-10-08 10:14 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 10:21 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] stanleylieber.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 06:46 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 10:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
Oh, I'd totally forgotten that Jason Louv interviewed me (http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/article/id2274/pg1/) for the Disinformation site in May. One question that didn't make it into the final piece (because I had nothing to say about it, really) was this one, which explains their interest in me:

"Your family had roots in the Plymouth Brethren, a heavily evangelical, Puritan sect. And I looked it up and it turns out the other luminary to come out of that group was the magician Aleister Crowley, who was raised in it in the late 19th century. And it may seem an odd comparison, but the two of you seem to have quite a bit in common–global bohemianism, a certain anti-Puritan occupation with sex as politics (he wrote homosexual porno poems in "White Stains," you wrote "Coming in a Girl's Mouth"), a preoccupation with transcending "socialisation processes" as you mentioned above, certainly shamanism and construction of multiple selves for fun & art's sake. I wonder if this is a parallel you've ever drawn."

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 10:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
What am I talking about, that interview was May 2002, not this May! (But all Mays pulse with the same evil febrile fertile phallus-energy, don't they?)

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] dickumbrage.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-10 01:38 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 11:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] backmasked.livejournal.com
while i agree with yr appraisal of pop satanism --and the silly vibe of the disinfo dvds- i have to wonder from yr comments if you even watched the dvds or read the book.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 11:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
If I did that my soul would already be Satan's. No, I peeped into both, then thought I'd let you have my prejudices while they were still fresh.

(no subject)

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2005-10-08 01:51 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 09:10 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] agent139.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 10:12 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 11:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
When I wrote the line about "the missing link between AdBusters and Beelzebub" I hadn't read this quote, which rather confirms my prejudice:

"It was Occult study that first led me to major in Marketing. The way I see it, it's just magick by another name... I think that Marketing is simply the legitimate face of occult study - the last socially acceptable way to understand magic theory. If more occultists got involved in it, I think there would be a lot of growth in the way we interpret, present, and understand ideas." --Jedediah Walls, Chicago AdBusters

(from an Amazon customer review (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1932857206/002-8499063-7203227?v=glance) of Jason's book.)

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 03:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] symbioid.livejournal.com
What are your thoughts about Hakim Bey, then? He seems to take a similar line of thought regarding ties between the occult and the modern media ecosphere in which we all reside. (see: Millenium)

I have mixed thoughts on this all, myself. I do think that, perhaps, you've misunderstood the essence of what they're trying to get across. That's not to say that everything they say is completely relevant, but the point of viral/linguistic/memetic warfare (which is, of course, why Rushkoff comes into play here) as being a key component in cultural war, is to me, very important.

I do tend to think that sometimes things are just "fashionable" and don't particularly care for it because it's trying to hard, but then again, I look at Index magazine or somesuch thing and feel disgusted by all the "glamour" and pseudo-intellentsia. Yet this is the very same culture you seem to be floating around in.

Funny how we both see through a keyhole and find the other one's culture, or at least part of their culture, mere veneer, a sheen of gimmick and play, with no serious context behind it. Maybe if we look deeper, you at this, and I at your work and clique's work, we shall find something worthy of more than mere disgust? N'est pas?

Adbusters and Satan

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2006-03-06 02:50 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 11:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] qscrisp.livejournal.com
I also find satanism extremely silly. It's all Rocky Horror Picture Show to me.

Someone here mentioned that those in the Church of Satan don't actually believe in Satan. It's true that the 'church' set up by LaVey are basically atheist with a touch of Vincent Price. Houellebecq writes about this in Atomised, too. Satanists, he says, are merely atheists. All the Satan nonsense is used to recruit people in a dramatic way and to decrease their inhibitions. At the centre of it the secret is to do with acts of nihilism such as Dosotoyevsky dealt with in Crime and Punishment.

I see 'mainstream' atheism and Satanism equally as 'slave religions' - as part of Christianity. All very depressing.

By the way, a piece of gossip, dear. I was at a kind of talk given on Aleister Crowley and Charles Shaar Murray was there with his partner, and they both caused a bit of a scene because someone was smoking in the room (upstairs in a pub, as it happened). Hilarious. Very black magic, I'm sure.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 01:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] urban-ospreys.livejournal.com
Re: anti-smoking Satanists. Planet Ned Flanders is scaring me more than Satan. It's a modern Purgatorio, and the motto is 'Do what thou wilt, just not in practice'.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] qscrisp.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 01:32 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] zotz - Date: 2005-10-08 01:52 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] qscrisp.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 03:52 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] zotz - Date: 2005-10-08 03:58 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] qscrisp.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 04:03 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] zotz - Date: 2005-10-08 04:17 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] qscrisp.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 04:30 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] touristathome.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-09 05:18 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] qscrisp.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-09 09:13 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] stanleylieber.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-09 05:54 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] qscrisp.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-09 09:19 am (UTC) - Expand

naci___güller____atatürk@hotmail.com

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2006-05-27 10:32 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 12:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dutch-schulz.livejournal.com
Maybe your attitude towards Christianity is a reaction to the strict religious background that, as you mention, your family had (and I suppose Crowley's certainly is)? Dogmatism, which does deserve disgust and is a sign of one's stupidity, may inhibit any system of values, any worldview. And, perhaps, a lot of it has been accumulated in Christianity over the centuries. I grew up in post-communist Russia, where there was no ideological pressure whatsoever - you could, basically, believe in anything, and noone would bother (as long as you don't eat human flesh etc). I had no idea what a religion is, neither did my family. So looking now at Christianity without previous experience and a prejudice, I see quite a lot of good stuff in it - and will probably continue to see as long as nobody is pressing me to conform to it.

And satanism seems to be an ingracious and childish attempt to escape the pressures of christian dogmatism by those, who had encountered it. You know, like beating up a chair that you accidentally fell over. Tasteless.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 12:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nicepimmelkarl.livejournal.com
throbbing gristle were pretty much into market research right from the word go. i've still got one of the questionaires that came i think with the second annual report album. does anybody want it? submit address and i send it to you. first cum, first serve. condition: don't sell it on e-bay. just smell the paper. oh by the way it's demis roussos weekend over at my blog.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 02:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dzima.livejournal.com
Deal.

I also want the original concert ticket for the 1972 Emerson, Lake & Palmer tour in Germany.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] nicepimmelkarl.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 02:54 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 02:59 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] stanleylieber.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-09 05:56 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 03:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] reptilebrain.livejournal.com
Nick,

You Should watch the disinfo interviews, and not the series. The series was crap, but I thought the interviews were pretty good. Especially the ones with Robert Anton Wilson. Both Robert Anton Wilson and Grant Morrison would be particularly insulted to hear you lump them together with "Satanists." Neither of their views, or the massive amount of literature that both Wilson and Morrison put out, have anything at all to do with a supposed "satanic philosophy."

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 03:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
Yeah, I watched them both. They were both sweet, they had soothing voices. I liked Wilson's priapism. I could just picture Grant's library, though, full of books about the "bicameral mind" and stuff like that. I've been around so many people who take coke and rave about the bicameral mind, like the guy "The Hairstyle of the Devil" is about, Martin Heath (I put a backwards message in that song that says "Acid house is the vehicle of Satan, also known as Martin Heath"). They're usually into marketing too, those types, and they're "young businessman of the year" with their record label or their TV company or whatever, as I imagine Metzger is. I just wish they'd all go and read Bruno Schultz or Andre Gide or Oe Kenzaburo or something.

Gide

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2005-10-08 03:14 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] qscrisp.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 03:55 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 06:00 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] qscrisp.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 07:15 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 09:14 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] qscrisp.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 10:17 pm (UTC) - Expand

one more thing

Date: 2005-10-08 03:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] reptilebrain.livejournal.com
Grant Morrison, (a big fan of yours) has some nutty ideas. However, the main idea that he champions is that egos should not become static and the personality should be a fluid thing. We should allow ourselves to change. This has nothing to do with the occult.
And it sounds ALOT like a lyric of yours:

"Because being of one mind is a capital crime. I will pack and unpack at the drop of a hat."

some witches like rainbows

Date: 2005-10-08 03:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 300letters.livejournal.com
While most satanists are really christians who prefer to wear black, there is a large segment of American occultists, neo-pagans, whatever you wish to call them, who remove themselves from the dilectic entirely. My girlfriend, a Wiccan of many many years finds those people to be truly humorous, "rejecting christianity" to worship a christian deity.

The flip side of all this is practical. You should watch Grant Morrison's lecture on the disinfo DVD if you have not already. His point, echoed by many is entirly practical. If it works, magic is a useful tool for effecting change. Even if the only way it works is in harnassing your will to effect change in your life. If the tool works, why throw it out of the toolshed? Some of the more interesting stuff borrows from situationist theory (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alison.pollard/thedrift.htm) and can be a quite useful symbolic structure to affect change.

Besides, a nice dose of non-rationality is often a good thing.

Re: some witches like rainbows

Date: 2005-10-08 03:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
Yes, I watched it! He was a bit drunk. He kept spitting orange juice over his very expensive suit and laughing "fuck it!" And he was talking about the bicameral mind and how people are just distributed fourth dimension space time events, or something. I wasn't taking notes, because it didn't really sound like a philosophy I could personally use, you know what I mean? So the utility argument doesn't quite cut it with me.

Re: some witches like rainbows

From: [identity profile] 300letters.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 04:26 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: some witches like rainbows

From: [identity profile] seanthesean.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 06:38 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: some witches like rainbows

From: [identity profile] 300letters.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 06:45 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: some witches like rainbows

From: [identity profile] seanthesean.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 07:11 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: some witches like rainbows

From: [identity profile] 300letters.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 08:59 pm (UTC) - Expand

circles in spirals

Date: 2005-10-08 03:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fascicle.livejournal.com

so the cheque's not in the post to anyone whose superstition
or "pantheistic new-age religion" has been assailed, then? (£1,797)

Re: circles in spirals

Date: 2005-10-08 03:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
I'd be bankrupted all the way to the Day of Judgement...

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 03:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cap-scaleman.livejournal.com
That "Makes Jackass look tame" quote reminds me of the "Dir en grey makes Manson look like disney" those J-rock fanatics "walks around with".

So if a J-rock/pop band is "worser" than Marilyn Manson, and still more plastic and marketed, what is much worse (and plastic and marketed) than "evilness"?

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 03:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bklyndispatch.livejournal.com
except entry momus. while I admire the work of some occultists, or satanists, or whatever they'd like to be called (I'm thinking of Grant Morrison and Alan Moore here)and understand the interest in irrationality and self exploration, when that turns from DMT on the weekends into potions and rituals in the woods, I can't help but snicker.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 03:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
Another thing: there's this tight little circle that goes:

internet > dungeons and dragons > conspiracy theory > 20 foot lizards > goth > satanism > sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll > marketing > internet

and I'm so bored with it.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] cap-scaleman.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 03:49 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 03:57 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] 300letters.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 04:31 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 05:01 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] luckyclone.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 05:26 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] chloesha.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 05:48 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 05:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lord-whimsy.livejournal.com
I'm amazed this sort of early 70's Leonard Nimoy-narrated claptrap still exists.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lord-whimsy.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 11:16 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] luckyclone.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-09 01:25 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] seanthesean.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 06:35 pm (UTC) - Expand

sorcerer's apprentice

Date: 2005-10-08 05:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pressurised.livejournal.com
It is, it must be, impossible to believe anything now. But, those of us who do define ourselves as anti-capitalist are drawn towards all systems that are, at their core, unrealistic, because of the negative suggestion of utopia contained within, the suggestion that their impossible quality might be the basis of another world. We know, of course we know, that the only reality, bottomline-wise, is economics, but we are looking for a surplus, something that works, even though we know it can't work. Oh, for speaking in tongues. We are stuck someplace, on the on-off platform, next to the up-down line, we are standing with Bataille – we are thinking, as we return to unreal systems, old-time religions, divination, spirituality, we are thinking: can we as unbelievers nevertheless use this, can we get to somewhere else with it, can we tap into fanaticism without becoming fanatical? Because we know that if we are going to get past banality, we need to connect to intensity, but the surplus, the beyond, the ecstatic is also beyond us because our disbelief incorporates a knowledge that says, only the commodity speaks, and therefore, by implication, the worldly use-value of spirit is precisely measurable.

Re: sorcerer's apprentice

Date: 2005-10-08 05:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
You don't have to rush into the arms of imaginary monsters to escape "the bottom line". Economics is itself rather frail and imaginary, and can be deconstructed from within. I just came across an interesting—and beautiful—thought today, in an exhibition about the role of artists in business at the Kunstfabrik here in Berlin. The speaker is Martin Wolf:

"The core notion in economic analysis is the notion of value added — the difference between the monetary value of inputs and outputs. There are questions about how much those monetary values give you the true value of a product or service, which gets into the whole area of social benefit analysis, but economists try to avoid those questions if they can. There is no concept in economics that there exists some intrinsic value that is different to the value added. This was an important part of the history of the subject. Your value from an economic point of view is what people are prepared to pay for what you provide."

Re: sorcerer's apprentice

From: [identity profile] pressurised.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 06:16 pm (UTC) - Expand

commercial counterculture

Date: 2005-10-08 05:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pop--kandy.livejournal.com
Religious aspects aside, this seems to be yet another case of The Free Market(tm) coming up with products that cater to niche markets. Don't believe the Mainstream Media? Well, try some of our fresh, hot Conspiracy Theory(R). Not big on Dogma? Well, all the Kool Kids are into New Improved Shamanism Lite(patent pending).

It's like indie rock. In a great segment in the book The Rebel Sell, they quote Hal Niedzvecki writing about some unlistenable rubbish noise band - at first he praises them for being so confrontational, so epate-les-bourgeois - and ends up realizing that they simply suck. In the context of this discussion, it's like a little kid deciding to do the exact opposite of what they're told, out of wilfulness and spite, not because they have any constructively different ideas about what to do.

I'm concerned that someone from Adbusters would believe in such nonsense. But then again - as also effectively pointed out in The Rebel Sell - Adbusters couldn't exist outside of a capitalist commercial structure and in fact is such a part of that culture, that it can only frame its opposition to it in the terms of that culture itself - rather than proposing something better, they become exactly what the Satanist section at the bookstore does - attract the sheeplike guilty bourgeois, those in search of a different dogma, but a dogma nonetheless.

Re: commercial counterculture

Date: 2005-10-08 10:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] agent139.livejournal.com
the other side of this-- people have to eat. i wonder a little when an accusatory tone comes into people's voices regarding selling. it's self defeating, until and unless the entire structure is changed, from the ground up. and i don't see that happening anytime soon.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 05:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kattullus.livejournal.com
Icelanders have their own brand of paganism which is culturally accepted, it's a revivial of the old Norse religion

though apparently their worship consists mostly of getting drunk (according to a friend of mine who used to be very into that)

the current high priest is Hilmar Örn Hilmarsson, a film composer who used to be in Psychic TV

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 06:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thevulgartrade.livejournal.com
The problem with reading something that provokes you to think for yourself is that it tends to move your mind to new places. As such, here is something related in spirit, but not topic:

My father has the distinctly odious chore of being a liberal minister in his particularly Republican corner of America. He tries to preach a brand of Christianity that, politically, would be called progressive, and Dennis Hastert is his representative in Congress. Almost every time I see him, we discuss religion and politics, and the particularly dangerous confluence of the two in this country. Inevitably, we always end up at the same point, over and over and over again: the reason the Democrats can't win is because the agenda of both parties has been determined by the right wing. Homosexuality is a fairly prevalent social issue here, mainly because the Christian Right has decided to make it one. My father's advocacy for gay rights, though, is fairly irrelevant. The Bible makes reference to homosexuality, at most, less than ten times. However, it makes reference to the evil of greed over 3,000 times. Human beings are dying all over the globe because of the unchecked greed that is actually encouraged on a mass scale by the Christian Right, and the Christian Left is trying to recruit members by saying that the passages about gays are the ones God didn't really mean. We could argue about the nuances of civil unions versus gay marriage, or we could try to change the fact that the vast majority of people in Africa are starving to death, infected by AIDS, fearing death at the hands of genocidal maniacs, or any combination thereof.

I don't consider myself a Christian, and I don't particularly give a shit what an Israeli peasant had to say about sodomy 2000 years ago. Gays are treated like crap in a lot of places here, and I think it's a load of crap. There's no reason they shouldn't be accepted and given full marriage rights. HOWEVER. There are people in my very own beloved city, suffering and dying of diseases that could easily be cured, and I don't think that should continue. Just because the Republicans spend all their time bitching about sodomy doesn't mean I need to spend all my time saying how awesome sodomy is. I'd rather buy a sandwich for that guy shaking a cup at everyone who walks into Taco Bell.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 06:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanthesean.livejournal.com
i kiss you for this piece! great description of the "evil ego" coming out as glowing eyes.

& also, i would add that while i understand your feelings about skulls, sometimes skulls can be nice as well! like in this new piece i did.
Image

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 06:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanthesean.livejournal.com
it's a more mexican approach to skulls. made of candy.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] nicepimmelkarl.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-08 08:40 pm (UTC) - Expand

act his age...

Date: 2005-10-08 06:24 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
>Slayer fans

i'm sure olamm is a big slayer fan.

Re: act his age...

Date: 2005-10-08 06:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
Even more shockingly, he's a big Marxy fan!

Re: act his age...

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2005-10-08 07:14 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 06:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eptified.livejournal.com
Man, finally a polemic I can agree with. Except "stupidest, spottiest and most badly dressed", which comes off as, er, un peu snob. The poor and undereducated are so tacky, aren't they?

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 06:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
Are Satanists poor? I thought the wicked were supposed to "flourish like the green bay tree"?

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] eptified.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-09 03:05 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] dr-deadmeat.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-11 08:07 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 07:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] azzy23.livejournal.com
I dislike Satanism for aesthetic reasons too. Occult sections in bookstores are usually magnets for the spottiest, stupidest, most badly-dressed people.

Thank goodness I'm not the only one. While I never took an interest in what we Americans call "occultism" (very nasty, demon worship, animal sacrifice, and all that sort of messy business), I did briefly check out other religious options, and most of the "satanists" and "pagans" I met (the ones who travel in packs anyway) seemed like unattractive people (whether internally or externally... usually internally) who used that label to give themselves some sort of social anti-status, get lots of sex from sub-par women with low self-esteem, and free drugs. I just didn't understand why anybody had to join a club for that. *shrug*

Blinking skulls & black wholf t-shirts and...

Date: 2005-10-08 07:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] beautifultoxin.livejournal.com
Yes, you're right. But it's not all Satanism and the mark(et) of the Devil -- in fact, I'm still not sure why you're conflating all magic and those -- and most of the magicians I've played & worked with already get that their practice had better mean more than bell, book & candle else it's just whitey wanking around in the dark.

They didn't need Adbusters or Seattle '99 or Indymedia or indie rock or W or the Daily Show to convince them that sound ethics and the pursuit of justice (and not in some bleating Superman sense) could make for a healthier world, whether you're calling that magic or just the shit you do every day.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 08:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] butterflyrobert.livejournal.com
Yes, Satanism just strikes me as... silly, I'm afraid. Why abandon the idiocy of God if you're not also going to abandon the idiocy of The Devil? Sure, I love mystery, and I love "the old religion", the Greek pantheon, the Celts, Shinto, all that stuff. What I hate, though, is the way Christianity vilified fertility religions and made them "evil"....
America's idiotic binary culture forces you to be good or evil, with or against, constructive or destructive. The result is that alternative culture people internalize the stigma of otherness, becoming Fashion Goths and Slayer fans.


These are feelings exactly.

*** *


I must correct one misconception that you have: Satanism and the Occult are two separate things. Pop satanists can't tell the difference (and bookstores lump them into the same "New Age" section - which is also a different thing altogether), but as an intellectual (of sorts) affected with "the old religion", you certainly should know better.

A lot of occult practice is composed of what were once considered scientific disciplines; disciplines which cannot be disproved and yet have been discarded by science because they cannot be "objectively proved". For instance, it is scientifically impossible, by current standards and understanding, to prove or disprove something as ambiguous and subjective as, say, tarot. Some occult disciplines have recently been re-investigated, such as theories involving etheric fields, colored light therapy and the effects of various minerals on biological magnetic impulses/fields. Fascinating stuff. One could probably write an album themed around the idea that age-old occult teachings are now "cuting edge science"! Remember that ancient texts and pagan holy sites described the planets (and, in some instances, even their precise orbits) of our solar system long before science could "prove" their existence.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 11:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anglerfish96.livejournal.com
This is a good point.

The definition of occult (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=occult) is that which is hidden or other, the mysteries of life. Something that I know for a fact Mr. Momus is interested in investigating via his writing and music.

disciplines which cannot be disproved and yet have been discarded by science because they cannot be "objectively proved"

As an agnostic, I think this is one of the greatest faults of dualistic dogma. Time and time again science has found its theories completely reorganized due to its realizing that it wasn't looking at the whole picture, whether by missing the forest (the infinite/universal) or the trees (the infinitesimal/quantum).

Not to discount science, it is the only thing we have at the moment to measure anything, but in my humble opinion, part of modern rational thought depends on knowing that not all can be known.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] butterflyrobert.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-09 08:12 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] butterflyrobert.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-10-09 08:06 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 08:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sarmoung.livejournal.com
6 hours? And I though Eastern Orthodox services tested one's patience... Robert Anton Wilson is a starets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starets) , even if he doesn't know it.

As for Shinto being a "quiet, gentle, mainstream influence", I by no means entirely disagree with this, but I still think your understanding of Shinto in relation to Buddhism, Confucianism and folk/local religion in Japan, never mind the rest of it, really does need a bit of work! Since the rise of nativist schools in Japan during the 18th century, Shinto (whatever that is...) has been most certainly been something other than just quiet and gentle. To be frank, your stance on Shinto seems both perilously underinformed and verging on a revisionism centred entirely outside of historical event and both national and local experience.

I've still got a spare review copy of Shinto in History: Ways of the Kami (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/082482363X/102-2710795-2030545?v=glance&vi=reviews) you'd be very welcome to if you let me know your more recent address. I might also suggest Religions of Japan in Practice (http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/titles/6649.html) as a reasonably priced and readily available reader for a look at religion at Japan in toto across the ages. You cannot entirely separate out Shinto anymore than you can turn tamagoyaki back into yolk and white. Well, unless you're some sort of wizard...

(no subject)

Date: 2005-10-08 09:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imomus.livejournal.com
Ah, books about Shinto! E mail me at momasu@gmail.com, please.
Page 1 of 2 << [1] [2] >>